Progression, not Regression

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 31/08/2003 - 17:36

This thread is to discuss Warren Pilkington's article of the same name.

merman · Post by **merman** » 31/08/2003 - 17:41

Well, when I first read that title I thought "this could cause some ill-feeling". But Warren has made a good point - the way forward is to do something different. You only have to look through recent messages on here about home-build SID synths and new remixers to see there are positive signs.

When I first registered on this forum, I put "Does anyone want to remix my SIDs?" as my signature. That's an open invitation to any remixer out there to get in touch.

So, get posting your ideas in the "Remix suggestions" section of this forum!

DHS · Post by **DHS** » 31/08/2003 - 18:48

Dear Warren,

I remix something that appeals to me and that make me feel emotionally involved. That's true with very famous sids, not unknown ones.

This is an hobby, not a work.

BTW1: the only time i remixed upon request i made the Menace remix. Just look at the charts where it is.

BTW2:The scene is getting boring and too closed to new releases, either from well known remixers and from newcomers.

cheers.

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 31/08/2003 - 19:04

It's a weird scene, in that the fans are split in what they want, and the remixers are more interested in their own creative development than producing stuff that will "please the masses". I really do believe that, and it's even true of the C64Audio.com CDs. None of the Cds were
"produced to order", they're just tunes which appealed to the people
who did the CDs.

The other thing is that since there's very little money in it, there's little scope for persuading people to sell their creative potential doing stuff for "the mass market" which they don't believe in. In general this is a good thing, unless you're part of "the mass market" who just wants more stuff that sounds "like the SID, but with improved sounds".

I guess you've got two main kinds of SID fan: musicians on a creative journey, and listeners on a nostalgic kick. There is overlap, and the two were pretty much one until the technology allowed more loose and professional sounding covers...

It's a weird situation, and no mistake. It will be interesting to see how Project:Galway fares, since this is aimed squarely at people who like the SID sound, and who want to reminisce over the sound they fell in love with...

I've often wondered how many people out there actually want me to produce something just like BIT 1 again, but with new tracks covered. I've had emails about that, you know...

Chris

Post by **tas** » 31/08/2003 - 19:39

It's an interesting article and one that touches me personally and one i've tried to address with the remix64 v2 CD. On that CD you will notice there arn't many what people would call REAL Classics and yes that is deliberate. What we wished to create was a CD that did try to progress and move forward. While tunes like Sanxion are classics for their own right and basically arn't broken so to speak. If we took on sanxion we'd spoil it or just create a one for one cover which doesn't exactly bring the tune out into a new light, we just couldn't progress with it.

We took tune likes Tales Of Boon, Armeggedon Man, Iron Lord, etc etc. These tunes have great melodies and some great ideas. However maybe the full length of the original SID didn't do some areas of the SID justice. So basically this is where we came in. We took the stronger areas of the original and built around them.

Also rather than me dictating what tracks should be remixed we spoke as a collective and found sids that best fitted with the CD's ethos.

I've already had mails exclaiming that these tunes aren't classics and why didn't we pick out different tunes which could be considered as classics. Reason being is that this CD is more about Musical creativity than pure nostalgia. Tho ofcourse there's still that element of nostalgia there.

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 31/08/2003 - 19:43

Thinking about it further, it's much more difficult to create a track than to listen to it. So many listeners have a lot more tolerance for (for example) stuff like BIT 1 than the creator does (i.e. me!). I guess the audience just wants more and more of the same, because they listen to it a few times and want more. But as musicians we don't want to do the same thing over and over again. I certainly don't, and you can see this from the Cds I've been involved in. I also have a lot less tolerance for stuff I've heard before, which I think it true of many musicians (virtually everyone who posts here seems to be a remixer or musician).

Chris

Post by **tas** » 31/08/2003 - 19:55

What people want exactly is very difficult to messure. When being heavily involved with remix64 i tried and tried to get more non musicians to enjoy remix64 as they do with remixes, but unfortunately the plan and the ideal didn't turn into fruition. If it had then maybe we'd know more about the listening habits of non musicians and their needs and wants.

weblaus · Post by **weblaus** » 31/08/2003 - 20:00

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree to with a lot of what Warren says.

For a start, while I agree that a select few tunes have by now been covered often enough, I think the example of the Last Ninja games isn't a good one: If there are a dozen subtunes that do sound different, they shouldn't be dumped together just because they happen to be in the same game.

Also, I think doing things different just for the sake of it isn't really productive and comes dangerously close to l337-ness. If people out there do enjoy the more well-known stuff, why is it bad to give them what they want? To me, it's pretty insulting to hint that I'm apparently backwards because I prefer tunes that originate from the 80s and are by the cult composers like Hubbard or Galway - I hope the progessive-thinking guys don't have any Beatles or ABBA records in their possession... on the other hand, I beleive Radiohead is a prime example for the wrong idea: I'm convinced a lot of people just buy their records because their told how great that band is insetad of a genuine liking of their songs.

I sure can appreciate what today's SID composers can achieve with the somewhat ancient technology, but that's about it. C64 music for me IS about nostalgia, and I believe that's its biggest strength - if today somebody can compose a cool new tune, I'd like to know why they don't do so on current equipment.

I prefer remixes of well-known classic tunes because I like to be hear and possible be surprised what a good remixer can do with a song I know and love - if the remix is of something I don't remember in the first place, why should I listen to it, especially when there's so much original music out there? Granted, said original music could very well be worse, but still, why should I prefer listening to unknown stuff just because it somehow originated from a C64?

Also, there's lots of really innovative stuff around (think of Mahoney's remixes, to just name one example) based on well-known SID tunes proving that something new and different can be done this way, too.

I believe being progressive just for the sake of it would speed up the way into obscurity, with casual and/or nostalgic SID fans being left behind, resulting in a probably little core group that can congratulate itself on being anti-mainstream - I don't see that as a good thing or how this would help into being taken seriously.

Well, enough for now, I hope I haven't lost anyone with the length of my rant

Ulrich.

weblaus · Post by **weblaus** » 31/08/2003 - 20:09

Chris Abbott wrote:It's a weird situation, and no mistake. It will be interesting to see how Project:Galway fares, since this is aimed squarely at people who like the SID sound, and who want to reminisce over the sound they fell in love with...

I've often wondered how many people out there actually want me to produce something just like BIT 1 again, but with new tracks covered. I've had emails about that, you know...

I don't think Project Galway can be seen as an indicator in either way, simply because it's so extremely hard-core pure SID in its approach.

On the other hand, I for one would love to see a new BIT done in that way, though I'd say part 2 with its more polished production values is the better example.

Post by **tas** » 31/08/2003 - 20:13

Thanks for your points there Weblaus. Food for thought ofcourse.

Just a statement here about your thoughts. If you only buy music in which you know from years ago. Then why ever buy a CD from new bands and artists?

What v2 does is create something new out of something old. So basically you could look at the CD as a completely new CD with using the original sids as a template. I'm not wanting you for one second to think it's a c64 remix CD just because it's using a SID as a platform from which to base ideas. I'm hoping you look at the CD as you would a CD which hasn't got its ideas from a SID.

My fave ever tune is Sanxion, and nothing will ever change that. After listening to lots remixes of it. the version i listen to more is the original. why? cos it's not broken.

basically the question any one considering buying remix64 v2 is: can you open your mind and broaden your horizons?

Post by **tas** » 31/08/2003 - 20:21

If you listen to the Glyn R brown tunes from RKO, and then listen to the sids, you'll notice that glyn has used the same ideals has myself. His Firelord Remix is a great example of taking stronger elements of the original and building around it. Also his guardions tomb remix is done the same way. His tunes are while now dated somehwat to the ear, but are a perfect example of how we have tackled volume 2. These tunes arn't nostalgic in the true sense of the word, but have just taken the strongest parts of the original and built around them creativitively. Both tunes currently are in the top 5.

Waz · Post by **Waz** » 31/08/2003 - 20:22

DHS wrote:Dear Warren,

I remix something that appeals to me and that make me feel emotionally involved. That's true with very famous sids, not unknown ones. This is an hobby, not a work.

I realise the last sentence a heck of a lot, considering my HVSC background. Yes, it is a hobby, and as such, yes you do have to enjoy what you're doing.

However, at the same time I think the emotional involvement comes as much from playing the game as well as the music. The music is only part of the whole experience. After all, as good as Wizball is as a game, it wouldn't have gone together half as well if the playability or graphics were lacking, no matter how good Galway's soundtrack is.

With demos and party competition entries, the focus is more often on the tunes within and how well they suit, or how well composed they are in the competition entries. After all, many of us are still composing C64 tunes, and that is something I think we should bear in mind. Yes, there are many classic tunes. But new classics are being written and I really wish that people (not just in the C64 remix scene, but the SID scene as a whole) would take notice of that. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's also depriving many good modern composers of the recognition they deserve.

Waz · Post by **Waz** » 31/08/2003 - 20:27

Tas wrote:I've already had mails exclaiming that these tunes aren't classics and why didn't we pick out different tunes which could be considered as classics. Reason being is that this CD is more about Musical creativity than pure nostalgia. Tho ofcourse there's still that element of nostalgia there.

You've hit the nail on the head, Neil. This is exactly the point I was trying to make with the public at large. Some of the tracks you selected on R64 Volume 2 at least are a change, and for that you should be applauded, not chastened for trying something. I for one will be interested in how the final mix of the CD turns out.

Besides, the definition of "classic" can range depending on the listener. The fact I hardly listen to any of the so-called classic composers in HVSC tells its own story. I'm looking for newer, fresher innovation now. Yes, the composers did make classic tunes and yes, they are pioneers. But like all pioneers, they age, and as time moves on, so does your own personal tastes (well most of them).

weblaus · Post by **weblaus** » 31/08/2003 - 20:30

Tas wrote:Just a statement here about your thoughts. If you only buy music in which you know from years ago. Then why ever buy a CD from new bands and artists?

Well, usually because I've heard and liked some song of them I on the radio or MTV or someplace else, thus making me seek out more from them. I'm aware this same way of attracting my attention could work on C64-related CDs as well, but it probably wouldn't if the C64 stuff doesn't strike a chord in me. This might not be entirely rational, but, well..

What v2 does is create something new out of something old. So basically you could look at the CD as a completely new CD with using the original sids as a template. I'm not wanting you for one second to think it's a c64 remix CD just because it's using a SID as a platform from which to base ideas. I'm hoping you look at the CD as you would a CD which hasn't got its ideas from a SID.

I'll be honest: I will buy this CD mainly because it is based on C64 SIDs, and I probably wouldn't if this wasn't the case. And I'll have to add that the idea of viewing it as a completely new CD, in my opinion, can't work if the CD is named after a well-known C64 remix site.

My fave ever tune is Sanxion, and nothing will ever change that. After listening to lots remixes of it. the version i listen to more is the original. why? cos it's not broken.

I believe for people who have grown up with the games, no remix can ever top the original - at least that's the way it is for me or my C64-loving friends.

basically the question any one considering buying remix64 v2 is: can you open your mind and broaden your horizons?

I honestly don't know if I can, I'll have to see if I find something of what I want to find in C64-originated songs in there.[/quote]

Post by **tas** » 31/08/2003 - 20:41

Weblaus,

Thankyou for your words, it's rare to see someone putting their point over in such a pleasent way. I have to say i have no idea if i'm barking up the wrong tree with volume 2 or if i'm hitting the nail on the head. I'm hoping it's the latter

I know it'll be hard to convince people to buy volume 2 cos of the track listing. So i'm hoping that reviews and word of mouth are good enough to convince, and hopefully the clips help somewhat (although the age old problem is that the clips do not do the CD justice arrises).

I'm currently thinking of ways to play parts of the CD, so that the listener can get a better idea of what we are doing but nothing in my head has materialised.

Progression, not Regression

Do you agree with Warren?

Progression, not Regression