All in the name of progress?

[tas]

Points understood. I'm not sure wether the 80% crap mark is very fair tho. I've just gone through about 50 tunes at random on the HVSC and found 99% of them melodic in nature. Not all my cup of tea, not all very good, but 99% of them are melodic.

I find alot of orchestral scores these days very "I follow the rules" type of thing. For me that ideal ruins music. Music is all about expression and personal creativity. Following rules (which inmho) kills music. For example who says you can't put a distorted guitar working with a tumpet (bad example). We are lead to believe that in structure musicians should follow certain principles which at the end of the day makes much music of modern times feel "Scripted". I think it's time we said.."Put down your books and feel the music".

One of the reasons i feel Glyn R Brown can make a great soundtrack is because of the lack of knowledge musically. I remember him saying to me once.."I can't even read music, i just play what sounds good". Ofcourse a little bit of musical training would indeed be of great help to glyn, but would that be at the expense of being able to maintain a strong melody. I'm in a very fortunate position that i often hear works from glyn that most of the scene have not and probably will not hear and 99% of the tunes are unreal. especially the stuff he sent me in the last year.

Last year i sat at his keyboard and he just started playing almost without thinking and their popped up a strong melody instantly.

Dare to be different i say. Elvis did and the beatles did. look what happened!


note: I don't expect views to be accepted by many as i am challenging what the norm is. My views are challenging the ethos of the current music industry. My views are bound to be controversal.

[Markus Schneider]

Well, the percent thing is very subjective. At least I see a music in its entirety. And I better say not my percentage here

I find alot of orchestral scores these days very "I follow the rules" type of thing. For me that ideal ruins music. Music is all about expression and personal creativity. Following rules (which inmho) kills music. For example who says you can't put a distorted guitar working with a tumpet (bad example). We are lead to believe that in structure musicians should follow certain principles which at the end of the day makes much music of modern times feel "Scripted".

I do agree that music is about expression and personal creativity. But I do not agree that "following the rules" kills music. It's just different not to follow and you can never say if it's the right way. Because this would state a new rule. Well, people do experiment, even great composers. Williams used a distorted guitar with orchestra in Star Wars II, Goldsmith used synth and orchestra for Star Trek. Danny Elfman is steadily combining and inventing new combinations. Good composers are flexible and music is since several hundred years in progress and it won't stop.

I think it's time we said.."Put down your books and feel the music".

I strongly disagree. Neil, you won't find in books how to script the music.
People then wanted to have so-called scripted, they didn't learned to do.
You learn about the instruments what they can play and what they can't., what their typical ranges are and so on. That doesn't mean you have to use the knowledge. If you want your score played by an orchestra, you need the knowledge. That means it doesn't hurt anything, by far not. By studying classical scores you learn how use the instruments in a good or bad way, how others used it and how it sounds. The decision what to use is still in your own hands. This doesn't hurt as well, by far not.
Further, if you have technical knowledge about harmony and counterpoint it will help you making things faster better. You know how to build music e.g after you composed your strong melody. This doesn't hurt and it opens a door since you know all ways you can go with one shot. Without trying what could sound good.

Last year i sat at his keyboard and he just started playing almost without thinking and their popped up a strong melody instantly.

The melody for 'Erato' was done whistling while a walk with my dog. Then written on paper. No keyboard, no book. And there will be x people doing it in a different way. There's no right way about it.

[Lagerfeldt]

Well said

[DHS]

I just want to point out an emerging trend: big software houses (eu and usa) are more and more publishing games from new developers. Korea, ex-communist republics and some european ones, like finland.

Check the EGEMONIA games for great orchestral scoring (with strong melody line) and, MAX PAYNE2, for a good ingame music (all variations of the very same melody) and the best "pop" song ever featured in a videogame endcredit.

[tas]

As i said, i expected you not to agree with my thoughts. I especially expected DHS to disagree

Anyway this discussion is completely missing the point of my article.

[DHS]

Williams used a distorted guitar with orchestra in Star Wars II.

Well, some days ago i listened to a band new symphonic orchestration featuring a distorted guitar that was simply.......... Sweet

cheers.

[Markus Schneider]

Anyway this discussion is completely missing the point of my article.

Nope.

Well, if everybody has the same opinion it would be very boring having threads like this:
Opener: "This is good stuff."
1st Answer: Yes.
2nd Answer: Yo.
3rd Answer: Yep.
....

DHS: Yes, there's something Sweet ...

[Chris Abbott]

And I still think that SID and Orchestra together has the potential to sound fabulous rather than "amateurish". It all depends on how it's done...

Chris

[Markus Schneider]

Erhmm, well ... yes.

[Matrix]

Being the sort that collects orchestral versions of stuff, id have to agree with chris here - ive heard complete crap in the past, be it a tv theme or pop song, and orchastral variations can greatly enhance it - its all about how you do it.

Dr Who for example - I picked up an orchestral version of that on LP at a car boot one sunday - and i was like WHOA, THIS IS GOOD !! Same for Terrahawks, Smooth Criminal and the like .... Orchestral versions DO Rock ! - With the possible exception of Thomas the Tank Engine

Not that im suggesting sids are crap - quite the opposite, a bad sid can be made to sound better, a good sid Will be made to sound AWESOME !! I also agree with Tas, I love to hear combinations of instruments that vie away from "the norm"... for example... the band "BOND" violins and classical music with drums and rock beats !! - Better than Hooked on Classics or Nigel Kennedy IMHO - For a great song from the 80's that explored this, check out "Rondo Veneziano - La Serenissima", Fantastic Stuff.... great video

Now - Bring on Warhawk, Out Run & Comic Bakery ORCHESTRAL STYLEEE WITH LEKKY GUITARS - YAHHOOOOOOO !!!!!

[Rafael Dyll]

Basically, I have to agree with Neil. Melodies have lost their importance - in computer and video games at least. There are examples of music, mainly games consoles however, that shine, even today.

But just to summarize what I feel needs to be clear to all of us. I'll put it down in 3 basic, chronological steps:

1. When we listened to C64 music for the first time, it was the only computer capable of playing anything that actually sounded like music. It was fascinating to hear electronic sounds and imaginative melodies. Oh how we laughed when the SID produced arpeggios and a 4rth digitized channel. How we adored those marvellous composers and tech geniuses... We are now, on average, some 15 years older and things were always better back then, weren't they? In fact, there was a lot of crap and there was a lot of amazing work on the 64.

2. With the advent of CDROM, 32-channel sound chips and MIDI, things got more interesting. Everyone expected that with all this modern technology, we'd have the excellent sound quality AND brilliant tunes. It didn't happen because the industry was overwhelmed with the possibilities. So they ended up putting hours of FMV on CDs, atmospheric 16-bit effects into the sound chips and cards. A second reason is that about 3-6 years ago, hardware was necessary. Only those with "proper" studio environments had a chance of getting music out there. Established musicians and companies with budgets. CDROM needed to be pushed, and the industry had to make it clear why this new exciting medium was just so exciting.

3. Technology has further advanced. Software synthesizers, samplers and the net have made forums such as this one possible. There a new breed of composers with a strong urge to compose and produce. Many technical boundaries have been passed and we are witnessing a return to a similar situation that we had in the 8-bit era: Composers sitting in their bedrooms, composing and programming sounds out of their heads, without the need for massive studios, symphonic orchestras or a massive budget. It frees the mind.

On a last note, japanese games and in general console games do indeed have a higher quality of tunes I have to agree. The reason for this is the strong loyalty to the consoles which have a longer life-cycle in general, stronger fan base and the genral commitment to their work itself. Games like "Einhänder" on PS1 (1998), "Castelvania" (across most platforms) and "Shenmue" on Dreamcast feature absolutely lovely music that shines in both technical aspects and musically. I have been playing and collecting games since the VCS 2600 and ZX81, own games consoles in my collection ranging from the sad Commodore CD32, across MegaDrive from Sega to the Gamecube and I think that I have a fairly good view of the overall games market and the music within.

'Nuff said.

[DHS]

some 15 years older and things were always better back then, weren't they? In fact, there was a lot of crap and there was a lot of amazing work on the 64.

Totally agreed.

A second reason is that about 3-6 years ago, hardware was necessary.

True for pcs, not really with consoles. A clear example could be games for PS1. Many games streamed audio directly from CD (in cdda or xa format), many others relied on the PS1 hardware to generate music, with all the limit of the sound part of the console. And, while it was hugely better than Amiga (to say one), it wasn't so distant from the consumer PC audio of the times.

Only those with "proper" studio environments had a chance of getting music out there. Established musicians and companies with budgets.

Not really true. We (NJoy, Pyratronik and me) made (maybe the only) the soundtrack for the Amiga game "The shadow of the 3rd moon", that was played directly from the cd (cdda). At those times we didn't really have nearly a 1% of the studio possibilities we have today but we received splendid ratings from all the reviews of the game (press and online).
Personally, i made all my part with my old mixer, 2 synths, an old 12bit sampler and Amiga as sequencer.
NJoy used something more, pyratronik only a novation bassstation, a mixer and the very same 12bit sampler.
So, really, no "big studios" were needed.
We were involved in a good seller ps1 game too, to be later dumped only because the publisher (and not the developer) decided that it would have been more market-wise to put in the game well known hit commercial tracks.

Games like "Einhänder" on PS1 (1998), "Castelvania" (across most platforms) and "Shenmue" on Dreamcast feature absolutely lovely music that shines in both technical aspects and musically.

Well, i couln't really put Einhander into the shining ones: i'd instead put it in the same virtual container where i put all what i consider "the usual japanese dance-crap". There is a reason why japs sell nearly nothing in the world in the dance area. That's my opionion, of course

Cheers.

[Shinobi221]

How the sands of time have changed so much when it comes down to computer game tracks. Games these days are no longer the 10 to 15 minute button bashing exercise like they used to be in the 80's. They’re far more involving and as a result require a more atmospheric sound track. More than not they are telling a story about a scene or character in the game. So when they are adventure games a suitable mood needs to be created.
If on the other hand you look at beat em ups, driving games and the odd platformer I don't see how a good composed sound track complete with tune can go a miss.
It dose seem to be the Japanese musicians these days that manage to put out decent original tunes.
One can only hope that in the days of remakes of old game titles such as the last ninja or ninja gaiden that eventually some one will remake the tunes to go with the game for once?
But what are the chances of that happening?

[Rafael Dyll]

True for pcs, not really with consoles. A clear example could be games for PS1. Many games streamed audio directly from CD (in cdda or xa format), many others relied on the PS1 hardware to generate music, with all the limit of the sound part of the console. And, while it was hugely better than Amiga (to say one), it wasn't so distant from the consumer PC audio of the times.

I can counterpoint that. Tunnel B1 for PS1 is a full-blown orchestral studio masterpiece that is clearly streamed but is definitely not made on a mixer and one sysnth. In general, the music "hookability" was often there, whereas PC games... well, I can't really remember one brilliant soundtrack from the PC mid 90ies... Just my view anyway.

Not really true. We (NJoy, Pyratronik and me) made (maybe the only) the soundtrack for the Amiga game "The shadow of the 3rd moon", that was played directly from the cd (cdda). At those times we didn't really have nearly a 1% of the studio possibilities we have today (...) So, really, no "big studios" were needed. We were involved in a good seller ps1 game too, to be later dumped only because the publisher (and not the developer) decided that it would have been more market-wise to put in the game well known hit commercial tracks.

Blittersoft published it I think. But you just contradicted yourself... as you said, you were the only ones maybe. I just said that most composers then had to be with a big company (smaller companies started dying mid 90ies, Core turned to Eidos etc.). Also, no disrecpect meant DHS, but an AGA game for CDROM was not really mainstream back then and didn't really have any impact on the games industry. The big players were PC and PS1. And back then, you only had a chance with big hardware and big connections.

Well, i couln't really put Einhander into the shining ones: i'd instead put it in the same virtual container where i put all what i consider "the usual japanese dance-crap". There is a reason why japs sell nearly nothing in the world in the dance area. That's my opionion, of course

I agree. Einhänder is maybe japanese dance crap partially, but some melodies are just beautiful and the end game track is just huge.

[DHS]

Blittersoft published it I think. But you just contradicted yourself... as you said, you were the only ones maybe. I just said that most composers then had to be with a big company (smaller companies started dying mid 90ies, Core turned to Eidos etc.). Also, no disrecpect meant DHS, but an AGA game for CDROM was not really mainstream back then and didn't really have any impact on the games industry. The big players were PC and PS1. And back then, you only had a chance with big hardware and big connections.

Sorry Rapahel, the fact that it was only for an amiga game (that selled well anyway) doesn't impact at all on the quality of the tracks. And it is videogame music of mid '90s we are talking about and the way the musics were produced, not how much the game selled or how big the software house was.

I agree. Einhänder is maybe japanese dance crap partially, but some melodies are just beautiful and the end game track is just huge.

I had a relistening yesterday, and i must admit i'm partially wrong. Many tracks are totally or partially good, but when it starts whith the techno/dance japcrap... argh!

cheers.