A note about a gallery...

RetroMarkie · Post by **RetroMarkie** » 20/09/2004 - 12:13

true Chris, but I have to side with MF here... the pictures are of HIM! my god! Ã‚Â£20 is a lot! I've spent tons on my stuff, my Canon D10 and D1 are worth a shed load AND considering the spirit of support that retro events need I feel that a little generosity is called for here.

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 20/09/2004 - 12:31

> true Chris, but I have to side with MF here...

Um, I was just presenting facts:

1) Patrick needs Mark's permission to use those photos commercially because he's in them.

2) It was a little unwise to ask Mark to therefore pay for the usage thereof. I wouldn't have.

but

3) Patrick did at least offer for Mark to be able to use website quality versions of them on this website. But by then the issue had become clouded by what he was going to do with the pictures (i.e. use them for commercial gain).

I think fact (3) is important to indicate that Patrick is not "the bad guy": I think he's applied business logic where it doesn't belong. But if you're a hardworking professional, then you tend to become a little paranoid about the world and his dog taking advantage of you. That sometimes leads to errors of judgement. God knows I've made enough of them, and sometimes upset people when I didn't mean to.

Of course, I'm in no position to judge anybody, I'm just trying to make sense of the situation. I could be entirely wrong.

Chris

SIR'86 · Post by **SIR'86** » 20/09/2004 - 12:34

IMHO the only person who should be able to SELL pictures of the event is Chris.

Fair enough that cameras were allowed, but it was a private, ticketed event, and anyone who wanted to take photos for later sale should have cleared it with Chris first AND paid a fee or offered a royalty.

All commercial exploitation of the event should be controlled by Chris, and he's entitled to his fair share of any proceeds, plus he needs the money too!

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 20/09/2004 - 12:51

Well, it's certainly something I should have kept my eye on a bit more. But BIT Live has always been camera central, and it's never been a problem before...

Chris

madfiddler · Post by **madfiddler** » 20/09/2004 - 14:15

Well I don't want to make a big thing out of it.

Personally, I've been involved in so many things now (not BIT) where I've been exploited, ripped off, whatever..

I'm sure Patrick wasn't going to do that... However, I won't allow anyone to even get the chance anymore, I've had my fingers burnt too many times, and some would say I'm over zealous about it... but that's just me, and it's not going to change.

I just wanted better quality pics for the website, that's all. If everyone was making cash out of the event, then sure I'd be happy to pay my bit... but the fact is, that no-one made money, most lost money - some more than others, and the fact that someone can make cash out of it, who wasn't officially involved just sickens me.

It's like 4-4-2 and Come on England. The record label made cash, the recording studio and producer made cash, the guy who designed the single album made cash, the company that duplicated the CD's made cash.. Hell even the f**king Cheeky Girls made cash being paid to attend the launch party (which the record company would not pay my expenses to go to). The ONLY people who didn't make any cash, were the bloody band.

Anyway, sore subject... moving on....

SIR'86 · Post by **SIR'86** » 20/09/2004 - 14:22

madfiddler wrote: It's like 4-4-2 and Come on England. The record label made cash, the recording studio and producer made cash, the guy who designed the single album made cash, the company that duplicated the CD's made cash.. Hell even the f**king Cheeky Girls made cash being paid to attend the launch party (which the record company would not pay my expenses to go to). The ONLY people who didn't make any cash, were the bloody band.

Unfortunately you should be used to that, having worked in computer games where the only people who make money are those aren't involved in the actual making of the darn things.

Me bitter? Of course I am!

RetroMarkie · Post by **RetroMarkie** » 20/09/2004 - 15:59

viewtopic.php?t=1870

That URL is to a thread I wrote... right now I'm so buzzing on the whole retro scene... we really do have to work together. I dont see any sence at all in us lot charging each other for things like photo's. I apprecieate he has a living to maintain but right now the coffers are empty, there is no cash about! This is where we all pull together and be supportive of each other otherwise this scene will die!

cmon, no fighting here but do you see my point? I love ALL THIS retro scene, and as an organiser I use what little power I have to advance the scene into a public eye thus attempting to put money where it needs to be ... Were never gonna be millionaires but we can keep this fun thing rolling along for years to come.

rant over... I love everyone really

beyond · Post by **beyond** » 20/09/2004 - 16:53

Everybody, let's not become blind crusaders here. It's normal to ask for something in return. Just because all of us (or many of us) play for peanuts, it is not that way with everybody else. When we went to The Gathering this May we were told that a person with a professional digital camera would take pictures of us and we could get those... We thought for free. But since he worked for free he had to squeeze us for a copy of RSR which he of course got. We got tons of pictures in high quality so the price of the CD was really nothing.

If this guy charges Ã‚Â£20 for many high quality pictures, so be it. The thing that sucks is that he asks for money and has no agreement with Chris---which I think he should, but since there were no "no photography allowed"-restrictions that doesn't matter. If he asked for CDs or something the thing would be entirely different. Talk to his good side and he might change his mind... might

Matrix · Post by **Matrix** » 20/09/2004 - 17:20

Love this

All commercial exploitation of the event should be controlled by Chris

- Id love to work in the games industry

- sadly you need like 10 grand for courses in London and 2 titles behind your name b4 anyone will even look at ya

- a very elitist field.

SIR'86 · Post by **SIR'86** » 20/09/2004 - 17:38

Matrix wrote:Love this

- Id love to work in the games industry - sadly you need like 10 grand for courses in London and 2 titles behind your name b4 anyone will even look at ya - a very elitist field.

That's not always the case - the company I work for has taken on artists with no previous games or even computer graphics experience, providing they have an excellent portfolio. It's not that hard to train someone to use a 3D art package or other tools, but it takes a good artist to make the most of them and produce excellent work.

Matrix · Post by **Matrix** » 20/09/2004 - 17:50

Interesting......

I may yet stand a chance then lol ....

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 20/09/2004 - 19:45

I'll give the last word to Patrick himself, who asked me to post this here (verbatim):

<<<begin>>>
I donÃ‚Â´t use pictures of the events commercially.

I only offer pictures to websites and newspapers, and its normal to pay a fee for publishing.

Since now i didnÃ‚Â´t make any mones with pictures (all wanted them for free or asked me to remove them), i only pay for it.. (travelling, equipment etc).

I gave you the pictures for free to use them in any way wihtout any fees (ask other press photographers for that!) in high quality! Thats sponsoring for an event too.
(Chris note: this is true, he gave me the pictures to use without strings.)

I made an offer to mark knight to send him all (!) pictures in high quality to use on his website which is not a private site (the usage of pictures in low quality doeÃ‚Â´s not cost anything!) for 20 Pounds, thatÃ‚Â´s right, but how i said the job of a press photographer is not to give away printable pictures for free, than I would lose my job and newspapers didn't have pictures anymore. After mark told me to remove all his pictures because it was a private event (... a private event with entrance fee and advertising?) i allowed him to use his pictures in bigger prints for free because i donÃ‚Â´t want stress.

Now i see this comments on the website.....

ItÃ‚Â´s not the normal way to talk about press photographers.... I am an official press journalist and made a lot of pics on concert with real stars, itÃ‚Â´s no problem, its normal to publish them in journalistic form. you are the first person (!) who get pictures from me for free (normally organizers pay for pictures in this quality!) because i liked the event and the idea of it. I give them away to you without any fee and i thought the guys behind bitlive would be glad about it....

I never supported events in this way (paying for entrance and giving away work for free) in the last 10 years, and if i read such comments (not yours of course) i am very sad about it and had to consider to do this again (but a lot of people are glad to see good pictures from an event like that!)

I think it's no problem to find an agreement with the organizer and bands for using photos of my galleries on their sites for free, but its normal if someone needs biger sized material for journalistic usage that he paid for it......

It would be nice if you could publish my statement on the website (I couldn't login today, donÃ‚Â´t know why).
<<<end>>>

I don't think anything more can be achieved by discussing this, and as Mark says, it's not so big a deal, so I'll lock this thread now.

It was probably just misunderstandings.

Chris

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 20/09/2004 - 20:02

And, as the thread that won't die, springs to life again...

Mark's last word on the subject:

<<<
1) my website IS a private site

2) I never said anything about BITLive being a private event...

3) I never asked for printable photos for journalistic purposes, the email I sent him was....

"Hiya,

I'm guessing you were the guy and gal with the rather large cameras what were walking around the church taking photos? I didn't know who you were, and people holding cameras kinda scare me

Anyway, is there any chance I can get some larger copies of the madfiddler ones for my website?

Many thanks,

Mark."
>>>

So there you go. Double misunderstandings and tonic all round.

Chris