Should C64Audio.com try the "Radiohead" model?

[Chris Abbott]

It's a mess isn't it?

Chris

[Moad'Dib]

I must agree with LMan!

Btw I think there are some people here who paid nothing for Radiohead album (even if they like the record), but they expect the full pay from others for their works....

No problem with that. We do it after the flesh...

[Chris Abbott]

I must agree with LMan!

Btw I think there are some people here who paid nothing for Radiohead album (even if they like the record), but they expect the full pay from others for their works....

No problem with that. We do it after the flesh...

The wink does nothing: are you going to name names, or throw unsubstantiated accusations around?

[Moad'Dib]

I must agree with LMan!

Btw I think there are some people here who paid nothing for Radiohead album (even if they like the record), but they expect the full pay from others for their works....

No problem with that. We do it after the flesh...

The wink does nothing: are you going to name names, or throw unsubstantiated accusations around?

The wink does it's function for me!! And if you use it I hope wink means wink for you too and not only pretend it.
You've replayed a little bit agressively. I just hope you forgot the wink from the end of your line...

[Chris Abbott]

You implied that some of a small subset of readily identifiable people is a hypocrite. Smileys aren't a defence for such mean-spirited sniping.

(unless you meant one of the many artists OUTSIDE the remix scene, in which case, you could have made that clearer, since for me it didn't mean that in context, and I apologise).

Chris

[Moad'Dib]

You implied that some of a small subset of readily identifiable people is a hypocrite. Smileys aren't a defence for such mean-spirited sniping.

(unless you meant one of the many artists OUTSIDE the remix scene, in which case, you could have made that clearer, since for me it didn't mean that in context, and I apologise).

Chris

Dear Chris!

This is so simple. If you aren't a hypocrite - and I do belive it you are not - then you'll buy the JOKE what I wrote above and will smile on it. And everyone do it this way please.
But I do belive there are some people from the kind I mentioned in my joke. That's it because no everybody a saint here...
Sorry for my poor english I hope you understand my lines.

[Tron]

Yeah, well... Anywayz.

My opinion: No

I've been thinking loooooong and hard about the matter of c64audio.com and reading some of the posts in several threads. So far I've seen good attempts in guessing why sales haven't been up to expectations. Expectations being also a part of the equation.

But it is all guessing. And prolly, all these guesses are true to a certain degree and contribute to low sales. I know everybody is putting in effort to try and figure out what "went wrong" and how to proceed. It's good to see that many ppl would hate to see the end of C64audio.com. So all noses are in the right direction.

Before any steps are to be taken to a new formula for c64audio we have to be absolutely sure what the factors of low sales really are. I hate to see Chris's mood after a second attempt fails completely.

Sales and expectations

Sales have been very low, so I've been told. Of course this has a number of Reasons. I can think of:
* Too high prices
* Too much hassle
* People don't care about a physical product
* People don't care about being an honest purchaser
* People get enuf good music for free on RKO

All these topics have been discussed in several threads. What I did not see is the result of what decades of the expensive music industry has driven our society into. It has become common to download first when thinking of obtaining music, unfortunately. And this trend has been on the rise significantly in the last few years.

Now I could go into all these Reasons and write about what I think of them in detail, but then I'd be entering the realm of guesswork too. And I'm not nearly as close to the action as others. So I'll just take a step back and view it as one thing.
Put all these 6 Reasons together, and you'll have to realize that there is only a small percentage of our already small audience to which these Reasons do not apply. -> Low sales. And unless we know for sure that one of these Reasons stands out and is mainly responsible and can act upon it, it is really a waste of effort to re-formulate c64audio.com.

On the other side of the equation, expectations must have been too high. Of course it would have been great if our beautiful community was the foundation of a great commercial side that would have yielded some amazing stories during interviews on TV when sales rocket sky-high. I know U've expecting neither the handful of sales nor the interviews on TV, Chris. But it's safe to say that the expectations were higher than the current sales.

Size does matter

Regardless of whatever one Reason is the main cause for low sales, or the expectations, c64audio.com would be at least self-sustaining if the community was, say, 5 to 10 times as big. Thus sales being 5 to 10 times higher. Maybe we should all be more focussed on marketing the scene in stead of trying to poke the people already in it to try and make them buy more. We cannot educate our community. And encouraging them will only work up to a certain degree. And if c64audio.com needs to be re-formulated, then do so to make it as low-maintenance as possible until the community is large enough for c64audio.com to sustain itself.
During the mean whilst (Python quote, and I STILL don't know if this is correct English), the rest of the community big-ones can do a lot of little things to politely stimulate sales. (Banners as on SLAYRadio.org, the mentioning by DJ's and stuff like that) But that's about it.

Options

"But, but, if you look at the sales of that one, compared to that one, and and..."
Yeah, yeah. I know. It's the weirdest thing. But do we have a definite explanation? No?
Then I'd say:
* Change nothing. Coz U might even make things worse. Just wait for the community to grow and be active therein OR
* Do whatever research you (or we) can to come up with hard evidence and figures so we know what to change OR
* or... give up.

Personal

Like a lot of ppl here, I'd hate to see c64audio.com go. Or even to feel Chris's disappointment. Personally, if c64audio.com was to go, I'd loose that safe feeling that I have a place to put my album up, IF I ever finish the fucker, that is. Besides that, c64audio makes me feel that bit more proud to be part of this unique community that produces and sells its own records.

You all prolly have noticed that I don't spray my opinion about matters all that often. Don't ask. It's just my nature. But seeing Chris having troubles with c64audio.com really makes me feel bad. So that's why this time I wanted to share with you what I've had on my mind for some time now. I do not want to see it go. I hope that Chris can keep it up until the community is large enough. And if it takes a generous donation to keep it up a year longer, I'd be the first in line. I'm sure a lot of other ppl can contribute publicity-wise also. I think that's all we can do for now. Let's just try. Okay? Please?

Yours,
Erwin

[Analog-X64]

I just got back from a 5 hour drive, am a bit tired so maybe I shouldnt write this, but I think I will and if I need to I'll edit it later

I think what "Radiohead" did was a Gimmic and a one shot deal... just google "Million Dollar HomePage" and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about.

I dont have an answer of what can Save C64Audio.com

But I'm sure of a few things.

1. I can get quality Products from C64audio.com and nowhere else period!!!

2. Living in Canada the reality is ordering items from the U.K. are expensive and not
the fault of C64audio.com or Chris. Here is a quick example.

Instant Remedy GBP 9.99 = 19.84 Canadian I cant remember how much shipping was. Now the item arrives here and since its origin is the U.K. it automatically goes through Customs and Immigration... Automatically add $5 GST handling fee for small packages coming into Canada by mail. This is a $5.00 fee collected for the privilege of being charged GST when I receive a small packet containing merchandise coming from out of the country. The actual GST is 6%

So Now $19.84 Became.. $26.03 and were not done yet!!! There is an additional Customs fee ranging anywhere from $10 to $70 that is added to my Parcel... So what started as a 9.99 GBP or $20 Canadian endups costing me $26-$45.

So when I order from the U.K. I have to consider that I really do want the item and as well if there are other items that I want and its in my best interest to order in Bulk.

So the CD becomes a Luxury Item... Again nobody's at fault here, Its just the way things are, and its my main reason for not ordering all the time.

Its obvious we all want whats best for C64audio.com and wish its continuous success.

Having these discussions is good, because we can bring forth issues and new ideas.. and who knows the answer might just be in the next post.

[Chris Abbott]

But I always send stuff as "gift", so it should get through without extra charges.

But yes, there are global forces at work.... such as the amount of money bank transfers cost.

Chris

[Chris Abbott]

and who knows the answer might just be in the next post.

Not with our postal system

Chris

[omoroca]

Ok, I haven't read everything in this thread, so sorry if I repeat any arguments already mentioned!

To Reyn's argument: Many of the people who downloaded the Radiohead album wouldn't have bought it anyway but would have illegally downloaded it via donkey or torrent. So if let's say 10 times as many people legally purchase the album and only 30% of them decide to pay, then you still have 3 times as many paying customers as you would have had with the standard model. => Radiohead model = good model

To LMan's argument: The minimum price + optional donation model doesn't sound good to me. If you e.g. sell something at eBay, you usually get a better price if you start the auction with EUR 1 (= the minimum price possible) rather than EUR 10 or something. I believe the same thing would happen with your selling model.

[LMan]

omoroca: but at c64audio, you don't have competitive buyers that will rise the amount, so I guess many won't pay more than the minimum price.

Another idea would be to offer more bundles, with considerable price advantages:
e.G.
- The starter pack (selection of bestsellers)
- The whole bunch (all-in-one for ambitious starters)
- The Back In Time Bundle (all BITs and the DVD)
- The Remix64 bundle (R64 cds + Revival ST)
- The Reyn Bundle (all Reyn's CDs)
- C64Audio's Gems (Karma, Crystal, Galway etc)
- and so on.

[Chris Abbott]

omoroca: but at c64audio, you don't have competitive buyers that will rise the amount, so I guess many won't pay more than the minimum price.

Another idea would be to offer more bundles, with considerable price advantages:
e.G.
- The starter pack (selection of bestsellers)
- The whole bunch (all-in-one for ambitious starters)
- The Back In Time Bundle (all BITs and the DVD)
- The Remix64 bundle (R64 cds + Revival ST)
- The Reyn Bundle (all Reyn's CDs)
- C64Audio's Gems (Karma, Crystal, Galway etc)
- and so on.

Those with long memories might remember I used to do this... it went very well, though to this day it means I don't have a 100% accurate figure of sales for some CDs.

The main issue is a technical one: it's a bugger to do and it mucks up the royalty accounting.

Chris

[LMan]

Can't you set up some kind of excel sheet that would calculate the royalties for such sales? Or better: integrate the royalty calculation into the shop.

Brainstorming:
- Don't have an extra product for each bundle, but use an extra table to group existing products into bundles (That way, granting of bonus material will work, etc.)

- Make the cart smart enough to recognise a full bundle in the cart, and have it substract a certain amount from each CD price

- Set up tables for royalty receivers, and a relation table between those and the products where you store the percentage that is to be granted from the actual sales price. That is to be added to the royalty receiver's table where you could also store how much you actually paid them, so you always have a balance overview.

That might be a bit of initial work, but might save a lot of hassle on the long run. If the bundles were as successful as you say, it would be unwise not to go that way.

[Instant Remedy]

@ Tron:
I'm not sure the community is going to grow, as we are a fixed number of people who grew up with those computers and music and I would guess about 95% of all people active on forums, downloading from RKO are from this category.
But on the other hand, since there were so many machines sold, there might be room for some more.

I don't know if people not familiar with the C64 are interested in the cool stuff at C64Audio. I have a feeling that most retro-stuff still feels a bit geeky to the kids, if they know about the origin.
Their minds may picture this: "This strange melodic tune was made by some geek in his parents basement drinking cola late at night (turn-off)" instead of a Timbaland case "this tune was made by this cool dude who makes tons of money and have a wicked crib and ride. My friends like him, so how can I go wrong". Or the Zombie Nation "this tune was the result of cool DJs knowing what they are doing to get people on the floor".

I dont' think many people knew Kraftwerk 400 was based heavily on a tune from the C64, didn't know it myself even if I played the game quite a lot. If it was to be released as a "retro-remix" I'm sure it would not have the same impact. There are many kick-ass club/unz-tunes at C64-audio/RKO which could have been dancefloor-fillers but they have not been coming from a "cool" mainstream source.

I know most people dream about having this nice music invading the earth because its so good (me included, I tell you that), but to be realistic it's never going to happen, no matter how good the rearrangements ever will be.
Sorry, a little off topic, have no ideas for the original question. Just wanted to express my opinions.

One thing though, that makes the "freeloader" option best choice for many is the convenience. Always available 24/7, no hassle with creditcards, no out of stock, no waiting for mail, no copyprotection, try b4u buy etc. I don't think it's always about the money, it's about lazyness in many cases. Even if you are willing to support the artist, like in Analog-X's case you are charged for other reasons.
But at c64Audio you can preview so much the try b4u buy is not an issue. I think the shop overall is as good as it can be in almost every area for the customers.
Digital distribution I like very much, I'm not the one wanting the physical object. I want to support the artist, show my appreciation to hopefully hear new material in the future.

Filesharing kills the industry in my opinoin, I think almost everybody does it from time to time...
I'm actually having mixed feelings about making a second album for a number of reasons, a big one being the filesharing issue.

Ok now, can't waste anmore time at work.