(I just asked this on usenet, but this appears to be a better forum...)
I want to participate in the C64 game music MP3 remix
scene.
I've picked Doug Fulton's Skyfox tune to attack first. What an
amazing, yet under appreciated work. Finding the SID online, I
converted it to MIDI using Michael Schwendt's SID2MIDI (which I just
now registered). With some cleaning up, I now have nice sheet music
in Sibelius2 (which is outstanding music engraving software).
OK, so once you have a MIDI the way you want, how do you go about
making it sound good? Something MP3 worthy?
The Sibelius crowd recommends TASCAM's Gigastudio (a software
sampler), but it comes with a heavy price tag.
Am I going about this the right way? All help greatly appreciated.
Getting started in the C64 remix scene
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David Youd
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Gigastudio is definitly an option. So is Reason from Http://propellerheads.se... But that's also pricey if you think Gigastudio is pricey... There other ways of going about it. You can use a standard midi editor and get some nice soundfonts to use for the instruments... I think some tracker programs also allows you to import midi files, although I am not sure aobut that...
<--- I went that way --->
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Chris Abbott
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<<<
OK, so once you have a MIDI the way you want, how do you go about
making it sound good? Something MP3 worthy?
>>>
Hi David
Well, once you have a MIDI that's got the same three voices as the SID, you then have to decide what MIDI tracks you want to add to it to make it "your" cover, and make it more than "SID with different instruments".
Once you've done that, you can record each track individually played through a nice sound, then mix the resulting WAVs together, altering their stereo, FX, etc.
Chris
OK, so once you have a MIDI the way you want, how do you go about
making it sound good? Something MP3 worthy?
>>>
Hi David
Well, once you have a MIDI that's got the same three voices as the SID, you then have to decide what MIDI tracks you want to add to it to make it "your" cover, and make it more than "SID with different instruments".
Once you've done that, you can record each track individually played through a nice sound, then mix the resulting WAVs together, altering their stereo, FX, etc.
Chris
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David Youd
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(Hey Mr. Abbott! It's been a long time since we've had any email correspondence. I'm still doing lots of hacking at work while listening to your stuff. My co-workers love your remixes, even without the C64 nostalgic factor at work.)
Ok, I've done a lot of reading online since my initial post.
I come to find out (from the non-Sibelius crowd) that Sibelius2, while perhaps the best music notation software, is not people's favorite sequencing software. Folks seem to recommend composing in Sibelius, exporting the midi, then using software specifically designed for sequencing to give the midi complex performance aspects. Do you guys have sequencer suggestions, given that I already have a rich composing environment? (I use Sibelius because I like to write old school stuff -- old school meaning 1700's: http://www.youdzone.com/music/Requiem%20Introitus.htm )
Posts also suggest that remix beginners (such as myself) should skip soundfonts entirely (which apparently are memory hogs), and move directly to software samplers. What do you guys think? Apparently, it is straightforward to convert worthy soundfonts into samples.
The software sampler most recommended seems to be Gigastudio. It works with Akai samples which come cheap on ebay. Posts also recommend GM500 as a way to start off one's sample library.
Apparently, I'm going to have to figure out what inexpensive sound cards for my XP system could support GSIF with low latency.
I already have Sibelius2, Windows XP, a Yamaha keyboard, and a Midiman USB 1x1. My naive shopping list now includes Gigastudio 160 ($470), GM500 samples ($120), and some GSIF sound card (hopefully only $175ish?), but I'd really appreciate more input before I start throwing down money.
Anyway, all advice greatly appreciated.
Ok, I've done a lot of reading online since my initial post.
I come to find out (from the non-Sibelius crowd) that Sibelius2, while perhaps the best music notation software, is not people's favorite sequencing software. Folks seem to recommend composing in Sibelius, exporting the midi, then using software specifically designed for sequencing to give the midi complex performance aspects. Do you guys have sequencer suggestions, given that I already have a rich composing environment? (I use Sibelius because I like to write old school stuff -- old school meaning 1700's: http://www.youdzone.com/music/Requiem%20Introitus.htm )
Posts also suggest that remix beginners (such as myself) should skip soundfonts entirely (which apparently are memory hogs), and move directly to software samplers. What do you guys think? Apparently, it is straightforward to convert worthy soundfonts into samples.
The software sampler most recommended seems to be Gigastudio. It works with Akai samples which come cheap on ebay. Posts also recommend GM500 as a way to start off one's sample library.
Apparently, I'm going to have to figure out what inexpensive sound cards for my XP system could support GSIF with low latency.
I already have Sibelius2, Windows XP, a Yamaha keyboard, and a Midiman USB 1x1. My naive shopping list now includes Gigastudio 160 ($470), GM500 samples ($120), and some GSIF sound card (hopefully only $175ish?), but I'd really appreciate more input before I start throwing down money.
Anyway, all advice greatly appreciated.
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Chris Abbott
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Er.. know what you want to do with your remix: it sounds like you may be putting the cart before the horse by thinking about the technology before you've worked out what you actually want to do with it. Are you doing orchestral remixes? Synth Remixes? There's little point in just rendering the notes of the C64 version in other instruments. If we know a bit more about your plans for the end product, then we can give you better info about how to get there, and what with. The technology should be secondary.
As for sequencers, I've always used Sonar/Cakewalk. It's a bit easier for a novice than Cubase, but Fruityloops has got frighteningly powerful these days, and acts as its own software sampler. It does still ask you to think in a bit of a rigid tracker mindset though, whereas a sequencer like Sonar allows you to be more freeform by providing a canvas you can just paste WAV files onto as the mood takes you.
Chris
As for sequencers, I've always used Sonar/Cakewalk. It's a bit easier for a novice than Cubase, but Fruityloops has got frighteningly powerful these days, and acts as its own software sampler. It does still ask you to think in a bit of a rigid tracker mindset though, whereas a sequencer like Sonar allows you to be more freeform by providing a canvas you can just paste WAV files onto as the mood takes you.
Chris
Actually - you can do that with FL Studio nowChris Abbott wrote:... Fruityloops has got frighteningly powerful these days, and acts as its own software sampler. It does still ask you to think in a bit of a rigid tracker mindset though, whereas a sequencer like Sonar allows you to be more freeform by providing a canvas you can just paste WAV files onto as the mood takes you.
Agreed - it is not as freeform but you can lay WAVs wherever you like not just on the step boundary anymore -
David Youd
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My goals are to take a software centric approach (no live instruments, vocals, etc.), yet have a wide variety of compelling sounds at my disposal.Chris Abbott wrote:Er.. know what you want to do with your remix: it sounds like you may be putting the cart before the horse by thinking about the technology before you've worked out what you actually want to do with it. Are you doing orchestral remixes? Synth Remixes? There's little point in just rendering the notes of the C64 version in other instruments. If we know a bit more about your plans for the end product, then we can give you better info about how to get there, and what with. The technology should be secondary.
Chris
Your point is well taken that perhaps I'm focusing too much on technology in my questions. However, I'm not counting on the technology itself to inspire me, in the same way one could not create good art by having the most Photoshop plugins effects.
I want to resurrect some favorite neglected SIDS (Dragonworld, Heart of Africa, etc). I'm not looking to merely regurgitate old SIDS note for note. Nearly always I find myself mentally arguing with the music I listen to -- perhaps objecting to how it resolved a passage, contemplating what it left out, and in general, scolding it for following the path of least musical resistance.
Much of your (Chris) work is why I've become interested in this at all. As in most new art experiences, I'll probably craft output similar to what others have done at first, but will find my own voice very quickly.
why not wait till Cakewalk's Sonar 3 Producer Edt. is released.... 
with that package you got erverything you need..(synths, samplers and
a lot of good effects(midi & audio))....
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/default.asp
cheers 2Klang
with that package you got erverything you need..(synths, samplers and
a lot of good effects(midi & audio))....
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/default.asp
cheers 2Klang
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Chris Abbott
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well, it's look like Win XP style....Chris Abbott wrote:It looks like a complete mess!! Speaking as a Sonar fan, I think it looks like a disgusting user interface... oh well...
...but i heard that Sonar 3 got a new audioengine... and they included some real good plugins like
a Lexicon reverb and some midi fx like Syncron32 (from Project5).....
waiting for the 2nd week of October.....
cheers 2Klang
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Markus Schneider
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Your questions
Hi David,
I am using since some weeks Sibelius 2.11. As it is a notation software with some scary plugin features, I see it as a tremendous software for orchestral works and let all those work be much easier regarding the composing and arranging.
Anyway the right choice (if possible) depends on several views:
The libraries you will use, the music you compose/arrange etc.
I for myself compose via Sibelius, then export the midi file into Cakewalk Sonar. Why ? The library I am using contains different dynamic samples (e.g. crescendo) I have to do separate midi tracks for. So I might be that I have 4 or even more midi tracks for one solely played instrument. This isn't comfortable while composing and so it isn't a good choice for me completing the music with Sibelius. That's why I use Sonar. I personally think that Sonar is the right choice if you don't do much VST (e.g. Soft Synths) work where I would prefer Cubase.
Reason is an allrounder and very often used for dance music, but IMHO it has one big disadvantage: I can't recommend it for HQ libraries which come mostly for GIGAor AKAI. The import is compared to original Giga libs, definately bad.
The latestest version of Halion (an VST often used in combination with Cubase) by the way is very good in importing Giga libs. But I for myself still prefer Gigastudio.
FYI the Gigastudio pricing is heavy, but look for bundles with a soundcard. This versions are named with Gigastudio LE. The difference is as far as I know the update and support feature which is not included over Tascam.
Anyway you can get a pro soundcard and Giga LE for about $190.
Further bare in mind that Tascam is heavily working on version 3.0 which should have great new features (read about that at Tascam's forum).
Things you should know about Giga (up to version 2.5):
You don't need CPU power on your Giga machine, but you need RAM. Giga supports officially 1GB. You can get problems with more. But I can't recommend less. Further I recommend it to use like a real sampler - on a solely PC. If you use Windows 98 on the machine instead of W2K or WXP you can load twice more samples.
The controlling between your sequencer PC and GIGA could be easily done with freeware programs like MIDIVIANET and MarbleTools.
Finally I am using 4 different programs:
Sibelius - composing/arranging
Cakewalk & Gigastudio - assigning the samples and mixing
Wavelab (with Waves and other plugins)- Mastering
Just my 2 cents here.
Cheers
I am using since some weeks Sibelius 2.11. As it is a notation software with some scary plugin features, I see it as a tremendous software for orchestral works and let all those work be much easier regarding the composing and arranging.
Anyway the right choice (if possible) depends on several views:
The libraries you will use, the music you compose/arrange etc.
I for myself compose via Sibelius, then export the midi file into Cakewalk Sonar. Why ? The library I am using contains different dynamic samples (e.g. crescendo) I have to do separate midi tracks for. So I might be that I have 4 or even more midi tracks for one solely played instrument. This isn't comfortable while composing and so it isn't a good choice for me completing the music with Sibelius. That's why I use Sonar. I personally think that Sonar is the right choice if you don't do much VST (e.g. Soft Synths) work where I would prefer Cubase.
Reason is an allrounder and very often used for dance music, but IMHO it has one big disadvantage: I can't recommend it for HQ libraries which come mostly for GIGAor AKAI. The import is compared to original Giga libs, definately bad.
The latestest version of Halion (an VST often used in combination with Cubase) by the way is very good in importing Giga libs. But I for myself still prefer Gigastudio.
FYI the Gigastudio pricing is heavy, but look for bundles with a soundcard. This versions are named with Gigastudio LE. The difference is as far as I know the update and support feature which is not included over Tascam.
Anyway you can get a pro soundcard and Giga LE for about $190.
Further bare in mind that Tascam is heavily working on version 3.0 which should have great new features (read about that at Tascam's forum).
Things you should know about Giga (up to version 2.5):
You don't need CPU power on your Giga machine, but you need RAM. Giga supports officially 1GB. You can get problems with more. But I can't recommend less. Further I recommend it to use like a real sampler - on a solely PC. If you use Windows 98 on the machine instead of W2K or WXP you can load twice more samples.
The controlling between your sequencer PC and GIGA could be easily done with freeware programs like MIDIVIANET and MarbleTools.
Finally I am using 4 different programs:
Sibelius - composing/arranging
Cakewalk & Gigastudio - assigning the samples and mixing
Wavelab (with Waves and other plugins)- Mastering
Just my 2 cents here.
Cheers
Markus
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Markus Schneider
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I doesn't look like a convolution reverb, which is and will be actually the standard for reverb techniques. I dunno for sure, but if the difference between the producer and studio edition is only the reverb, I would not take the producer one. I think that the freeware SIR (or better Samplitude's room simulator) with HQ impulses, like Ernest Cholakis', is actually the better choice. Like Altiverb for MAC. The faster the PC's will be the more we will use RealTime reverb which will base on impulses IMHO.2Klang wrote:...but i heard that Sonar 3 got a new audioengine... and they included some real good plugins like
a Lexicon reverb and some midi fx like Syncron32 (from Project5).....
Anyway I am looking for the version 3 of Sonar
Markus
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David Youd
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Wow! There are a lot of options, and there is a lot I don't know. Your collective input has been very valuable, and I have been tracking down information on all your suggestions. Thank you!
My game plan is still to compose in Sibelius, then export to a sequencer (which is not Sibelius) for better control of the performance.
Most of the suggested products (FL Studio, GigaStudio, Cakewalk, Reason, Cubase, etc.) seem to be converging on three major functional areas: Sequencer, Sampler, and FX (did I miss any other major categories?).
I've been trying to compare the products along these three lines. If I went with just one package, it looks as if the upcoming SONAR 3 Producer might be the sweet spot across those categories. It better be, to justify their asking price of $719.00 for new customers.
After I get my house sold this week, I probably need to download the demos from all these products to compare them first hand.
I'm still trying to figure out the appropriate use of these different categories of standards (I assume there is no implementation overlap between the four):
1) Virtual instrument plugin standards (Steinbert's VSTi, Cakewalk's DXi, MOUT's MAS, etc.)
2) Sound fonts
3) Sound samples (Giga, Akai, etc.)
4) How my computer currently plays midis (Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth)
(Did I miss any?)
My game plan is still to compose in Sibelius, then export to a sequencer (which is not Sibelius) for better control of the performance.
Most of the suggested products (FL Studio, GigaStudio, Cakewalk, Reason, Cubase, etc.) seem to be converging on three major functional areas: Sequencer, Sampler, and FX (did I miss any other major categories?).
I've been trying to compare the products along these three lines. If I went with just one package, it looks as if the upcoming SONAR 3 Producer might be the sweet spot across those categories. It better be, to justify their asking price of $719.00 for new customers.
After I get my house sold this week, I probably need to download the demos from all these products to compare them first hand.
I'm still trying to figure out the appropriate use of these different categories of standards (I assume there is no implementation overlap between the four):
1) Virtual instrument plugin standards (Steinbert's VSTi, Cakewalk's DXi, MOUT's MAS, etc.)
2) Sound fonts
3) Sound samples (Giga, Akai, etc.)
4) How my computer currently plays midis (Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth)
(Did I miss any?)