NEW USB SID SYNTH for sale!!!

[madfiddler]

It does not feed the audio back.

Think I'll stick with QuadraSID then

[putzi]

Your decision
I can´t live without it anymore

Here is some stereo-SID
http://d418.com/6581/

[Razmo]

Just ordered one of these HardSID4U studio editions today

Actually I've been a fan of the MIDI Box SID until now, but I simply do not want to spend the time it takes to solder on this anymore, not to mention; finding a proper casing to build it into... besides that, the MIDI Box SID cannot play back SID tunes on four different revisions in a flash, which is handy for short phrase sampling sessions.

As the 8580 is now handled in logarithmic fashion in the HardSID4U, I guess I'm satisfied with the HardSID4U, as being a finished product that I can just "plug in and play" now... at last!

If I should say ONE thing that I'd like to see on the HardSID4U synth (the VSTi), it would be a "contour/curve" parameter on the envelope generators, that will allow you to vary the "snappy'ness" of the envelopes. It can be done easily by just routing (modulating) the envelopes output to the envelopes own decay parameter... I use this trick on many synths that has a modulation matrix, and it works a charm.

I just thought that, if I do C64 remixing, it would be obligatory to have a SID synth... retro nostagica, and I'm going to have lot's of fun routing this through external analog FX gear, and not the least; routing other synths through the 6581 filters

The envelope bug of the SID chip would be easily circumvented by simply placing an analog VCA at the output triggering at the same time as the SID's oscillators... something I want to fiddle around with i think.

In any case, I hope to use this with comming creations...

[Tonka]

The envelope bug of the SID chip would be easily circumvented by simply placing an analog VCA at the output triggering at the same time as the SID's oscillators... something I want to fiddle around with i think.

Huh? Could you explain this a little (or a lot) for me please?

[Razmo]

The envelope bug of the SID chip would be easily circumvented by simply placing an analog VCA at the output triggering at the same time as the SID's oscillators... something I want to fiddle around with i think.

Huh? Could you explain this a little (or a lot) for me please?

Sure... One of the problems with the SID's envelope bug is because of a timer that is not reset properly in the hardware... in fact it's impossible to work around it, cause I've tried everything I know of while I was designing my own once, and I've been talking with the creator of the MIDI Box SID about this too... actualy the only way to make it work without the aid of anything is to make a polyphonic SID synth that cycle through each SID as notes are being played.

But you CAN do something else, which is to find a VCA that is midi triggerable and place it after the SID. To do this you must do the following:

1. Connect the audio output of the SID to the input of another hardware synth that has MIDI control also.

2. Setup this other synths amp envelope to the desired curve.

3. Make sure that whenever the SID is triggered, that the other synth is also triggered at the same time (same notes you play).


To make this work the best, you should ALWAYS set the SIDs envelopes to A:0, D:0, S:15 and R:0. This is the ONLY real useful settings on the SID chip, since this setup will not have any bugs going with it in the SID. It's simply a gating envelope with these settings of the SIDs ADSR.

If you need the SID sound to "ring out" after you have released a key, then this ADSR will not work, since the release is 0, but you can compensate for this, if the SID synth has an ability to not set the gate bits to off, when it recieves MIDI note off messages... I know that the MIDIbox SID has this function, I'm unsure about the HS4U.

Also, this trick will only work if you use the SIDs 3 oscillators together for a single sound... it will not work on individual oscillators, since the extra VCA is done on the whole output of the SID at once.

You could even do this trick using a software plugin, as long as you route the SID to an input in your DAW.

Hope this helped, otherwise just ask again

[Tonka]

Very clever!

When working with MSSIAH, I usually try to bypass the ADSR as much as possible and use the arp to regulate the decay of short sounds. So essentially with your idea, the sustain would always be set to maximum (so the osc is left 'ringing') and the midi would control the additional ADSR. And yes, it would only work on all 3 osc at once, which isn't much use to me.

I don't remember the bug being such a problem with the Hardsid stuff because of the refresh rate being much higher than a standard C64, which seemed to help reduce it quite a bit so you may be suprised when you get it.

I DID notice a lesser quality in sound though. SID just didn't seem as full or rounded when coming out of a Hardsid (not to my ears anyway). Maybe down to the caps and/or other components? I really don't know, but I'd be interested to hear your opinion once you get your unit as many people think I'm just imagining that a real C64 just sounds 'better'...

EDIT: Oh yeah - A:0, D:0, S:0 to 14 and R:15 also works well and means that you can use the sustain as a volume contol for the osc.

[putzi]

any mp3-examples how bad the impact of the bug is? I was never aware of it back in the old days.

[Tonka]

Most examples of the bug can be heard in the timing of drum sounds in various SID's. It's kinda 'loose' sounding - like Ringo for your C64.

I guess a good example would be 'Auf Monty' or 'I-ball'. Rob's routine seemed to suffer from it more in the later years, but TBH it doesn't even matter in Hubbard tunes 'cos they're so damn cool anyhow...

You can get 'em both from the SOASC.

[Razmo]

Well... to explain the envelope bug is a bit technical, but I'll try it anyways...

The reason you do not really experience this bug on the C64 music players is because they are compensating for the bug in advance. When you compose on a real C64, and you do not use a MIDI keyboard, then you will not hear any problems with timing. The reason for this is that the program internally set the gate bit to Zero some set milliseconds before a new note is to be triggered, and also at that point it sets all ADSR parameters to absolute 0. Then after a short ms of delay, the new notes will be triggered, and you'll not hear any problems... everything will sound tight and "on the beat".

But this is only possible if you KNOW in advance, when a new note will have to be played, so that you can make this preparation in advance. The reason it does not work with a MIDI keyboard is that you cannot say, when a note is to be played, since it can only get the note-on exactly when it has to sound. The synthesizer has no way of telling when YOU will be pressing a key.

We all know how crucial just a few millisekond can be when it comes to keyboard response, and how sloppy it will sound if this delay even varies (jitter), and this (jitter) is exactly what the SID envelope bug is all about... varying ms of delays before the envelope is triggered.

The bad thing with the ADSR bug is that it takes between 0 and all the way up to more than 25ms from a noteon is recieved, untill the note actually triggers, and the reason is that the timer that need to "reach the end" when clocking the ADSR internally is not always at the same value when you need to trigger a new note as it varies with the settings of the ADSR parameters from the previous note... some will be fast and emmidiate (like a setting of A0,D0,S15,R0) and others will need some time before the timer has reached "the end of the envelope phase" before you will hear the new notes envelope trigger. Therefore, the delay you will experience will depend on MANY factors if you do NOT compensate for the bug... the current state of the ADSR phase, which will depend on the ADSR values of the last note, and even the ADSR values of the note to be triggered... this is why it sound so sloppy, especially in older SIDs where the coders did not understand how to compensate correctly for this.

This is why the best way to overcome the bug is to switch the gate bit off when a new note is recieved, then set all ADSR parameters to 0 to make the timer run out as fast as possible and thus reach the end of the ADSR phase, and then make a short but definite delay in ms before triggering the new note so that you are certain the counter has finished and are ready for a new deadon triggering of the ADSR... but this of course gives you some latency which is not desireable.

Actually I've only found ONE sure way to make certain that the SID chip is ready to start an ADSR phase without any delay using this method:

In hardware, shut down the whole SID chip and then turn it on again setting all values and then gate... it works... but there will be a loud POP at every triggering, and it just is not really good at all.

[Razmo]

As a sidenote to my previous post:

The reason for why a multi-SID synthesizer with more than one SID can overcome this bug is because the last note playing on one of the SIDs is not needed to be retriggered for the next note, it has the ability to "ring out" on it's own, as the next note will be triggered on the next available SID...

If you have for example a synth with four SIDs like the HardSID 4U, and it had this capability (which it does NOT!), it would only have to retrigger a SID on every fourth playing note, which would give all the SIDs a fair amount of time to "ring out" their ADSR phases, and thus be ready for a dead-on triggering when their time is up.