The shape of the scene 10 years on

[Doddsy]

I remember once a guy did a remix of x-out on here in the british rap style and it got pretty much ripped apart for being too wordy makes you wonder if he'd released that now would it have gotten a better run at things?.

I'm sure had it been released today it would still get ripped apart - maybe even more so. Which is a shame as it really has quality rap vocals. The only thing that lets it down is he used the original sid and should have updated the instruments. Suffice to say we never heard any more remixes from that talented guy and we should have. There is a bit of an incrowd thing going on at the RKO site as the cheesy and outdated Euro style BreakDance (Wild Coiffeur Remix) is no where near as good as the more modern X Out remix from solo.

As a side note dr.blitzen (my side project) released a rap track from break dance where I'm sure that if they could have back in 84 they would have had rap lyrics in it yet that got pretty much ripped apart from several listeners too and that even had lyrics related to the C64 scene.

[Razmo]

Well... if you look at it in this way; When the scene here started, it was all new (logically), and it attracted a lot of retro fanatics who happened to have been playing through the 80's with the Commodore 64. At this point, all was new and fresh... it was so inspire'ing that it even attracted young remixers to make productions.

I believe that as with everything, people reach that saturated point where they really don't give a damn about the scene really... tried it all, said it all, experienced it all... everything ends up looking like a "me too!" experience... I believe this happens for both the real retro nerds and those who just got here for the musical experience in general.

I believe that with time, the real retro people will fall back to this place, as the SID will never really vanish from their minds before they are 10 feet under pushing daisies... these will probably come back, time and time again even though they maybe want a break from it all for a while.

Those who got here just for the musical experience will probably move on to other sites with fresh experiences... they may never return.

This put together gives the logical outcome, that at some point, when no new musicians get drawn in here just for the musical experience (the new blood), then the only source of "food" for this scene will be the return of the REAL C64 nerds... and one day these WILL be gone... to have this kind of feeling for the C64 require that you have lived through the 80's playing games 15 hours a day and made everyone in a 100mile radius insane by your SID tunes. These types of people is what drives the backbone of the scenes C64 spirit, not really those that just come here for a musical experience, or those who played a few games back then, never giving much thought to the composers of old.

So without the REAL NERDS being active, there really is not anything that will drive new people to find this place fantastic I suppose... these "other people" do not have the "spirit" to keep things C64 retro in my opinion. I see this trend clearly in the remixes released these days... in the past, we saw much more being made over the OLD tunes by Daglish, Whitaker, Hubbard, Galway etc... these are becomming longer in between these days. I DO NOT believe this is because people have been tired of the doosen Giana Sisters remixes that have been made, but rather a symptom of the fact, that the REAL NERDS are not producing much anymore... most tunes are newer ones I do not even know, and they mean nothing to me, thus killing MY interrest in the scene as well.

But with this said, I still feel we are here... people ARE still remixing, and the occational thread in here is also there... even Slay Radio is running still. I just bet that most of the REAL nerds have run into a kind of "scene depression" (in lack of better words)... sooner or later, when nothing has happened for a while, they will wake up and take the next "wave" of action I think (and yes... I'm optimistic)

[Jan Lund Thomsen]

But, there is still hope

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vEStDd6HVY&NR=1

Yah! Another Pomplamoose fan! I first heard them on PW Fentons "Perfect Head" podcast back in the fall of 2009. Then watched everything on Youtube, then grabbed all the freebie tracks, and then bought the "everything" package directly from the band. Awesome stuff.

Anyway - getting back to the topic at hand, there's a many great posts in this thread - and I can recognize myself in much of what is being said. For I too, feel that I am now in a place where it's all been done. Sure, there's exceptions - like the first time I heard NecroPolo's "Rimrunner" track. Or Firestorms "Commando". But those are rare occurences.

Nowadays I hardly listen to C64 remixes after they have been processed and published on RKO. Partly because there's other things clamoring for my attention - but mostly because there's just so darn many remixes out there. Back in the day RKO started out with around 150 tunes inherited from the Triad MP3z site, and there were only a handful of CDs available. Everyone knew everyone and everyone knew what everyone had done. And the years to come were a hoot. New sites were created, new musicians and music surfaced, but most importantly people started to meet up in person to share their love for the music. And I'm proud that I was part of shaping what we have here. But nowadays I don't know half the people who show up at the meetups, I own more remix CDs than I can count, and the C64 Remix part of my iTunes library recently passed 3.327 songs - that's almost ten full days of music. Because I feel that I need to keep copies of EVERYTHING on file - if nothing else then as an RKO backup.

Now, I'm not saying that the community has become to big for its own good - it's probably just my brain that hasn't expanded at the same ratio. Also, I have had zero motivation to work on the technical bits of RKO for a long time. And even the daily queue work has started taking its toll in the latter years. Hence the tradition of the jury and myself taking an annual break being introduced.

Actually, I'd love to turn RKO into what Monty Python called "an anarcho-syndicalist commune, where we'd all take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.", but frankly I can't be bothered to write the code for it. And for that, you all have my apologies.

[Razmo]

I just took a count on the boards for C64 Releases.... 22 posts on the first page that does not have ONE SINGLE RESPONSE ... I'm no saint here, and I post little myself, I only mention this to make a point. People comming here, making an effort, and posting for people do it for a reason; to get feedback, and I can readily understand why the boards end up "dried out", cause if you do not get any response, you loose interest, it's really that simple.... and if you can see the thread you made has been viewed maybe 30-50 times, and not a single response, then you end up saying "What the heck! I might as well make my own music, and find a more active forum out there!".

I bet the only reason we still see a lot of remixes on RKO is because people there give shouts and comments... I can asure you with 100% certainty, that the day that I recieve nothing else but a "downloaded times" number, my days here has been counted.

It may sound self-centered I do not know, but then that's what I am... fair and square...

[Analog-X64]

I had a rough day today at work with temperatures being at 40C and a File Server failing on me, I'm a bit tired. I have a few more things to add to this topic but I'll do that later maybe the weenkend.

However just one minor note in regards to the number of views on a thread, I'm not sure about phpBB but on our site running vBulletin. It cannot distinguish between a real person and Search Engine Spiders.

We get crawled by Yahoo, Google, MSN all the time and they generate view counts and I've had to explain this to a few members on our site, because they were wondering why something got 20 Views and nobody responded.

Now I try and reply to all new members and even comment on their remixes, but I'm not sure why, but sometimes I've missed reading this posts and I think has something to do with the way "View new posts" works. I usually use that button to sort out new posts that I have not read yet for the day.

Speaking of people running away, I recall there was a new member how was all excited about a Guitar Hero type of game, and somehow he had Delta or Sanxxion Playing on it, nobody responded and he simply left.

I dont think the love of Dogs/DachShunds is any different love for remixing. I mean how many photos of Dogs eating a stick or fetching a ball do you think I've seen on my wifes forums? Tons!!! but I still hit that reply button and say "Thanks for sharing" or "what a cute dog"

So I try to do the same here.

Anyways, I'm probably rambling, very tired off to bed. will ramble some more tomorrow.

PS: Sorting the member list by join date I'm user #53

[Infamous]

Yeah I get that alot with stuff I put up, 100+ views and nothing said, But I take that as "the tune must be fine because that many people have listened to it and had nothing bad or good to say about it" and release it lol.

But thats just the way I look at things, Im used to getting very little feedback it doesn't really "help" me as such but then I remember back when I 1st came here and I was relatively new to the whole thing and I got alot of feedback with people trying to help me to get better. I guess I just got better to the point where no one else feels they can help me anymore and like you razmo I am guilty of not passing that on and maybe I should be a little more active in the feedback sections and I certainly would be if my connection wasn't made out of some string and a plastic cup... but thats just me making excuses.

That x out remix - Maybe doddsy's right on that too thinking about it, the background tune was just the sid, But the talent on show was there to be seen and yeah on a "vocal talent" front it was definitely in a different niche to other rapped tunes, it was far more commercial and I do hope that one day maybe he'll read all this and realise there WAS people listening and give it another go.. but thats a 1 in a very high number chance really.

Its been very interesting to read everyones thoughts on this.

* oh and ps #95 .. makes me feel old that does lol.

[Razmo]

Yeah I get that alot with stuff I put up, 100+ views and nothing said, But I take that as "the tune must be fine because that many people have listened to it and had nothing bad or good to say about it" and release it lol.

But thats just the way I look at things, Im used to getting very little feedback it doesn't really "help" me as such but then I remember back when I 1st came here and I was relatively new to the whole thing and I got alot of feedback with people trying to help me to get better. I guess I just got better to the point where no one else feels they can help me anymore and like you razmo I am guilty of not passing that on and maybe I should be a little more active in the feedback sections and I certainly would be if my connection wasn't made out of some string and a plastic cup... but thats just me making excuses.

That x out remix - Maybe doddsy's right on that too thinking about it, the background tune was just the sid, But the talent on show was there to be seen and yeah on a "vocal talent" front it was definitely in a different niche to other rapped tunes, it was far more commercial and I do hope that one day maybe he'll read all this and realise there WAS people listening and give it another go.. but thats a 1 in a very high number chance really.

Its been very interesting to read everyones thoughts on this.

* oh and ps #95 .. makes me feel old that does lol.

Now, I did not make the comment to get at people who do not respond, as I do not respond much myself... that would be unfair. I wrote it to point out that no feedback equals fewer interrested, and with fewer interrested there will undoubtedly be less to respond or post at all... it's an exponential curve that is the result of it. The more posts, the more response and vice versa, it's that simple.

All in all; I simply believe that the scene is having a slumberparty... there is too quiet for newbies to want to get here, simply because the real C64 nerds have gotten bored with the (to them) smalltalk in here... it's like with everything you do for a very long period; you get tired of it, need a long break, and suddenly your appetite has been awakened anew... at least for the REAL C64 nerds (those critters that cannot live without the SID until they die... like me )

Guess that wether this scene will still be here then depends on those who run the sites... can they "hibernate" like the people, or will they turn the key?

[Doddsy]

Either way contributors who submit a remix will still get more listeners than if they were to produce an original piece and submit it to say myspace only for it to get lost in the tailend of the many thousands of tracks. The C64 scene has a ready made audience!

[Analog-X64]

This thread got me also thinking how I ended up here, things are a bit fuzzy, but what is certain is, it was thanks to Chris Abbott. I still have a copy of an e-mail I sent to him Dec-4-1998 telling him that I had just got a copy of "Back In Time" and how it was excellent work and good quality stuff and for him to keep up the good work.

And somehow from there I ended up here.

If it wasnt for the internet, I wouldnt be able to get my Retro Fix like I do now.

For example locally there are no Scene related activities at all, so there are no organized events that people compete with their 4K intros, or Video Animations. Infact there has never been such a thing.

We used to have two computer shows per year back in the mid eighties to mid nighties one of them being world of commodore, but those were things like NewTek and other vendors showing off their latest hardware, which was cool, but essentially trade shows.

So I get my fix from a distance and follow what goes on. Its too bad there wont be a BreakPoint anymore, I used to enjoy watching the competitions while streaming.

[merman]

However you look at it, a "scene" is made up of the people in it. People come and go, their interests and enthusiasms change.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most active in terms of actually listening and commenting on new remixes. But I love being part of the scene and knowing all these great creative people.

Ten years' time? There will still be interest, and some of the people will still be around doing their thing. I look forward to it.

[NecroPolo]

If it wasnt for the internet, I wouldnt be able to get my Retro Fix like I do now.

For example locally there are no Scene related activities at all, so there are no organized events that people compete with their 4K intros, or Video Animations. Infact there has never been such a thing.

Very good point. The local scene as such doesn't exist around my place. I guess, I am the only active C64 man in a very large radius The scene is the internet for me. Release stuff, check/enjoy/giving feedback on others stuff, being participated in certain projects etc etc - it's all just a click away. Definietly, without the internet there would not be an active scene - and without it the SID part of my brain would not work the same as now.

Considering Chris, I still have our mail-discussions, too (from the last year). His constructive ideas and support absolutely inspired me to check this remix scene in-depth and remain here.

So for Chris

[Analog-X64]

Ok... so from this thread, its obvious we are passionate about the scene and the well being of this site. So I'm going to throw in some suggestions, that I think in some small ways has helped my wifes site.

1. I have setup User Ranks and User Titles which is similar to what you see on the left side with the Level Meter, maybe we need to revisit that here and set it up. I'll post screenshots, with this post.

User Ranks: So for example as you can see, a new member with no posts, is just a small dog and they post more the dog grows in length, being a Dachshund related site its an appropriate graphic.

User Titles: Same as above but in text form, as you can see as the individuals post and reach the target numbers they have different titles.

BTW: People dont know what target they need to hit before getting to the next level, which makes it fun and a surprise so it encourages people to post to see what the next level is.

We also have special ones for Administrators, Super Moderators and Moderators.

2. Flash Chat from TUFAT http://www.tufat.com/s_flash_chat_chatroom.htm it was $5 to purchase and the members on my wifes site use it all the time. Its an IRC Style chat system, and you dont have to rely on any external servers. Best part for us, its a Private Chat System, so only members can access the chat, it integrates with phpBB and other popular forums.

3. Arcade system, we've got v3 Arcade which people can play all kinds of games which include classic clones like pacman, frogger etc.. and members can challenge other members.

4. CometChat: Yes although we have FlashChat, we found some users were leaving us for FaceBook so CometChat adds the same functionality as FaceBook chat bar located at the bottom of the screen.

5. Challenges / Contest: This adds another dimension and it might be harder to do on this site, but might be worth a shot. For example on some art sites that I frequent, they have monthly challenges. So for example Month of July challenge theme would be do a Space Scene, and people do their artwork around a Space Scene and people vote on them. The Winner gets to pick the theme for the next month August, and so forth.

All this stuff I mentioned above generates activity and helps keep the place alive.

We can look into doing things like that over here.

PS: I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run this site, which has been running great, I'm just making some suggestions that may help increase participation.

[Pex `Mahoney` Tufvesson]

Remix scene in 10 years? It will be something else. Change is the only constant thing in life!

Anyway, I agree with everything Makke said (and thanks for the reference, btw! - It's always nice to be remembered by someone somewhere!)... I'm in it for doing something that nobody else has. Recently, I found another area where I can make a difference. C64 coding, that is! Two brilliant people (Mixer and THCM) found out how to make the Commodore 64 play 8-bit samples with the SID chip. Suddenly, I found myself spending my time trying to make this 64kB computer play a 2 minute sample with Suzanne Vega's Tom's Diner. "Doing something that nobody else has done before". This was finishes in February 2010. Search YouTube for "c64mp3" and you'll see.

And, this goes on. I'm right now trying to get the Commodore 64 to do time stretch, autotune and vocoder stuff. Anything that tickles my brain and I can do in a few well-spent hours when the rest of the family sleeps! It keeps my mind from fading away! (I'm hoping to have something completed for the X'2010 demo party in the Netherlands in October 2010, so if you like stuff like that, keep your eyes open!).

More C64 remixes from Mahoney? Yes, if I find a reason, a place and someone that motivates me. Unfortunately, listening to other people's C64 remixes is something I have not done for the last 2-3 years. I don't need to. I don't know what you're up to. But that doesn't matter, does it? I keep in touch with the people I've met and come to like. So, I know the adventures of Ziphoid, Chris, Makke, Reyn, etc... And Visa Röster will maybe one day come together and do another concert or happening, there's nothing stopping that as far as I know!

Enjoy yourselves, gentlemen! That's what I been doing all the time, and that's what I'm still doing! And, it's the people that matters. If you want beautiful scenery, take a walk in a forest

Thanks for your time. Now, I urge you to go and do something that does not require electricity!

[Infamous]

I'm right now trying to get the Commodore 64 to do time stretch, autotune and vocoder stuff. Anything that tickles my brain and I can do in a few well-spent hours when the rest of the family sleeps! It keeps my mind from fading away! (I'm hoping to have something completed for the X'2010 demo party in the Netherlands in October 2010, so if you like stuff like that, keep your eyes open!).

More C64 remixes from Mahoney? Yes, if I find a reason, a place and someone that motivates me.

Time stretch? and vocal manipulation using the sid? that sounds like a interesting little project and by the sounds of things you've made some progress if you plan to have something ready to do in october, so looking forward to hearing what you come up with.

Motivation wise, you have a massive truck load of fans who absolutely adore your music, your offbeat style and the singers that you have around you id imagine anything you released would no doubt get a very warm reception and as you say things are always moving forward so it'd be interesting to see how you'd continue to innovate like you have done many times before.

I gotta 2nd your call to "go outside" its sunny! best to make the most of it before it disappears

[Ziphoid]

Just a little quick comment on this before heading off to IKEA with some friends...

There are things being done technically with the platforms running a bunch of the sites around in this community and hopefully some of those changes will help to give a more accessible way of retrieving and managing information about things. I dunno if that will help with the overall activities of things, but I guess it can't hurt.

Also, one of the biggest factors for a lot of people out there is real life. People have families, work and all other things that some times has to come first, which is completely understandable. I have the same issues, but I still want to keep doing this, since it fulfills me in other ways that the aforementioned things can't.

Oh well, keep discussing, and if you can find any good ideas of what can be done to liven things up a bit, just out with it and let's all make it happen.

Besides, there ARE new people coming along, even though they at times seems to be a bit shy and scared of jumping into discussions and so on, but I hope that they'll realize that to get things rolling in the community, the community needs to be active, and the only ones who can be active in a community are its members.

Oh, and I gotta second to parts of what Makke and Mahoney already said earlier. Even though real life may take over at times, this (and other) community has given me a lot of friends who I keep in touch with as often as I can and I'll always be thankful for that. Wouldn't wanna miss it for the world. Mahoney - thanx for making me go along to BIT Live Brighton in 2003...

(Dunno how much sense this made, but it's at least something)

Now, off to IKEA!