Razmo's Gear Rant Thread...

[Razmo]

Lovely.

What does it sound like?

[Commie_User]

Splendid stuff.

When are you going to record it? And which keyboards and synths will it go best with?


___________________

And as a further note, would you dare even dream of upping the ante by owning this beast?



http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/conbrioads200.php


That would be a holy grail though.

[Razmo]

Sorry for the late reply Commie... been bussy

Well... I'll be recording the new Waldorf machine as soon as I've been doing some instruments with it... used some time making an editor for it so that I can store patches... the Rocket synth has no memory normaly, only simple controller messages, but these can be used to make an editor, which is what I have done.

That monster synth you've pictured above... I've seen that one before... it's probably fun to use I guess... but it really is rather akward in size, and looks almost like a Flash Gordon spaceship cockpit! ... Simply don't think I'd want that monster in my compact studio

But with that said... I've said too much I guess... because if all goes well.... and it should have by now actualy... this beast will enter my home on the 7th of July:



Man! have I waited long for this to happen! ... and now it's for real, and I have to pay only 450 euro for it... but as I'm swapping my KORG ESX-1 SD in the deal, it's much less than that.

It'll be transported by the owner all the way from the Netherlands to Denmark, where a freind will transport it further into Denmark where I can pick it up...

The reason for the Price being so low is that it has minor issues with some switches that I'll have to restore myself... but it's not some of the most important features of this organ... the Ensemble Works, the pedalboards Works, the string section Works and the Organ section as well...

And yes... it's THE organ... an Eminent 310 Unique... the signature sound of Jean Michel Jarre, and I even have an original Electro Harmonix Smallstone phaser rev.1 from 1972 to complete the Picture... I even have a Deluxe Electric Mistress comming my way too, which is the second pedal Jarre used with this organ

I'm a happy man right now...

[Commie_User]

I bet you are. What a fantastic organ. Though I can run synths through my Electone organ amp for the same idea of big sounds, there's nothing like a real beasty to do them justice.

When you've got it all properly running, would you mind making a few samples? Like the kind of thing I've done? A skip across the C notes would be enough.

I must admit you've got some prime cuts of keyboard there.

[Razmo]

One of my plans is to make a thorough sample library of the 310u, as this is something I've wanted many times when I did not have a real 310u... so yes, I'll do a recording of this beast as best I can, and I'll record every single note on the keyboard for added realism.

Some aspects of the organ will be hard to replicate using samples though, especialy that magical swirling sound when combined with an EH Smallstone phaser pedal, but it should be possible to make convincing samplesets both with and without the ensemble.

As I understand, this organ has quite a few possibilities when it comes to making sounds and combining them, especialy when you combine the organ tones with the strings section... in addition to that, the pedal bass part is also there... and not only the Ensemble effekt is there, there is also a tremolo/chorus unit called "Orbitone".

The tricky part of this organ is that it has three speakers build in... and on the back it has an output with three signals, not stereo... it does have a headphone output on the front in stereo though, where the signals are panned Left and Right, and the third signal is mixed in on both L and R sides... So how I'm going to record it I have to figure out, as there seem to be several options there.

But my first goal is to cleean the organ up 100%, both inside and outside... after this I'm going to be fixing the middle Brown switches that does not work fully... if any other shortcommings show up in the process, these will have to be fixed as well before starting any sample work with this machine.

I really would like if it could be MIDI-fied, but it should be rather complicated since the keys have not one contact underneath them, but a whopping five contacts on the upper manual, and four on the lower... so I bet I'll be recording this beast via an audio track instead.... anyways, it does not matter that much since the Things it will be ussed for are non timing critical sounds, and not basses or percussion. A bit of human feel is actualy a good thing with this machine I guess.

I also got the deal on a trade with my KORG ESX-1 thru today... the seller wants to trade with this KORG machine, and 150 euro on top... so it's been a rather fair Price to pay for this, given the thought that he'll transport it free of charge all the way from Netherlands to Denmark (he was attending a music jam anyway here)... and my friend in Denmark will take it accross country also free of charge... I only have to pick it up about ten kilometers from where my mom lives.

I guess it's my Lucky days at the moment

[Chris Abbott]

Did that organ have a rhythm section Jarre used in any tracks?

[Razmo]

Did that organ have a rhythm section Jarre used in any tracks?

Nope... he used the Keio/Korg Minipops 7 (MP7) a lot on the Oxygene album instead



But there were two versions of the Eminent 310u... one (which was the one Jarre used) was the Standard version, and the other more expensive (and uglier) version was called the Theatre version.

The Theatre version had an added Rhythmix analog percussin unit, but it had only some basic preset rhythms built in that is not very interresting.

This is the Theatre version:



I guess the reason Jarre used the standard must have been the weight involved... the Theatre is much heavier than the standard version, and with all that gear he had to move around, I guess the standard must have been the best solution...

[Commie_User]

The tricky part of this organ is that it has three speakers build in... and on the back it has an output with three signals, not stereo... it does have a headphone output on the front in stereo though, where the signals are panned Left and Right, and the third signal is mixed in on both L and R sides... So how I'm going to record it I have to figure out, as there seem to be several options there.

What I would do is take a three-track pass of the outputs (or six if miking up as well) and save the three ranges of samples in their own folders. Users can then bulk-load each pile into Kontakt, with the software spreading them across the keys and presenting a nice ready interface for panning and effects and stuff.



I have no doubt that a range of VST effects can partially make up for the samples being unaffected by the organ's own. Plus give you stacks more. And anyway, who'd know?

But that task is going to be gigantic. Though you could cut the workload by attenuating the headphone out and just make a stereo sample. When I took my CD recorder to a junk shop to sample their Lowrey organ, that's what I did.

[Razmo]

That would be a way of doing the recording yes... And probably the most thorough way of doing it, and the most flexible for the user of the samples, but it's also going to complicate the sampling process quite a bit since it would have to be sampled in at least two takes... I'd rather want all three to be sampled at the same time... this is possible if you have an audio interface with more than just two inputs, but unfortunately I don't right now... but that may come later.

One funny thing about the ensemble effect is, that the effects varies greatly when you start to separate the three modulated signals in the stereo perspective... in fact it destroys that lovely shimmering sound the ensemble does when the three sources is mixed in mono.

Also, the Smallstone Phaser is mono in/out ... there is a lot of options to consider, especialy when sampling the organ... It would be impossible to cover all aspects of this magnificent organ.

One of the problems is that using samples, every modulation frequency that would normaly not change when changing the pitch of a note, WILL change when played back as a sample... Thus, if you want the most flexibility, you'd only sample the tones without any modulation, and let a samplers own effects do it's Wonders... but then Again, it would not sound like the real thing anymore.

So there is a huge tradeoff when trying to mimic an organ like this with authentic samples... That is why sampling every single note gives the best result, as the modulation will keep it's speeds.... but then Again... every sample would be as if every note on the keyboard had it's own ensemble for example... in real life the organ routes all notes through only one ensemble... Again a flaw that will make it sound not quite like the original.

Another problem is that a sample always start over every time you press a key... an analog organ like this has it's oscillators phase vary with each keypress, also not accomplisheable with samples really.

And it gets even worse when you want the Phaser on it, as it's modulation is very pronounced and Again samples would have it's own phaser on every key.

Of course this does not mean that samples sound bad... it would probably give new dimensions to the eminent sound character, and sound Unique anyway, but it will NEVER sound like the real deal.

But my goal is not to make the samples sound like 100% the same...it's more like I want the basic character of the eminent sound in sustained and looped samples to use the sounds in totaly new instruments... like Building Blocks of sound.

If I want the real deal sound... I'd just use the real deal

[Commie_User]

I know what you mean. The hardware sound keeps its full character consistent. I've found that with even my more rudimentary models. But in the end, just making passes of the clean or slightly effected sounds will be enough.

And I think with a good organ, people will be happy with even a couple of C notes to work on. When I sampled that Lowrey I just took the C's, but I still had a great time playing the sounds when I got home. Wasn't the full experience but I was still very chuffed.




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It was a good organ too, a Symphonic Holiday, like this one.



I'm sorry I didn't have the room as he was only selling it for £40.



If there was room I could have this Selmer organ as well. But I haven't even got a garage to rotate stuff in, nor could it be near if I rented one. Sigh.





Is that a cassette recorder I see built in? Don't tell me it was a data deck, though it could have been used to just record demos.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lowrey-Selmer ... 5af24b421e

[Commie_User]

....But OH GOOD GOD YEAH, look at that:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Large-Vintage ... 338335020a

I suppose even I could be persuaded to have a change for a baby like this. Though it is a bit too huge. I'd have to get rid of both piano and keyboard corner. ....Bit too much of a sacrifice, luckily.

I'll have to stop myself bidding for that anyway, as it's only 99p. And imagine the sample challenge there, making various passes at different pedal speeds.


......Anyway, keyboards. You were saying...

[Razmo]

Yeah.. it's quite incredible how Little Money organs cost on the used market really... That's also why you can still find the Eminent in the Netherlands for very Little Money.. some even throw it right at you just to get rid of it I guess... it's a common organ in the Netherlands since the factory that built them was from there.

Many are just rotting away in roofs or barns as noone use them anymore which is crazy when you think about how much Money you can sell them for to the right people... there is a guy in the Netherlands that buy these, restore them and sell them for aboyt 1200 euro a piece.

[Commie_User]

Quite right. And I don't mind telling you it can nearly hurt to not bid for that baby. But them's the breaks. Though I feel better to know that if I really want more, there'll be a suitable one floating around Ebay sooner rather than later. You really can have what you want these days and that's the miracle. But as you say, let's hope the unsold ones aren't so quickly trashed.

So it's good to ogle them anyway. Especially as I just know that big one's going to sound fruitier and more spectacular than mine. But still, I can always cello along in session, overdub hums, accordion and everything.

But still... sigh.





Just have to make do with prints I s'pose.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Print ... 51ae135ecc



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Print ... 51addecea2



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Print ... 51ae336de5





But look at this one, little less a monster. It even has its own air pump meter. Pity it doesn't work.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-VICTO ... 33831d6b98

[Razmo]

Ahh... tomorrow it's the first christmas day this year ... I'll be getting my Eminent 310 Unique home... I'm really exited I have to admit. I've got a few pictures of the organ in question from my friend who will be transporting it, and it has already been transported from the Netherlands to Denmark now:

foto3.jpg (82.58 KiB) Viewed 21929 times

foto.JPG (95.61 KiB) Viewed 21929 times

But.... for some strange reason and coincidence, my Roland MKS-30 module just decided to freak out on me today... the dreaded VCA/VCF chip problem... one chip is breaking down with crackles and pops in the audio... allready have swapped one such chip in it... I guess it won't stop until all those faulty chips have been changed to the newer clone version... guess I'll just have to order 5 chips and replace the whole lot at once.

[Commie_User]

Well, all I can say is what a marvelous bit of engineering. And you really would have your work cut out sampling it. Think of all the permutations.

The Sound On Sound article is mindboggling to consider what you need: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may07/a ... ent310.htm

I wouldn't mind getting some of that to tape myself.