dear tactical voters...

q__ · Post by **q__** » 01/12/2003 - 16:17

Isn't the problem more the number of votes than the actual grade?
Most tunes get 20 votes or so, so the 'tactical' voters have more influence on the overall score. And with the current quality filter it seems impossible there are tunes on there which are bad. So when earlies the scores respresented 2 4 6 8 10 they now could be interpreted as 6 7 8 9 10. That makes a Very good a descent 9.. That's not so bad

But seriously, if everyone on this board would start voting, the scores would be more 'rigid' so to speak.

ifadeo · Post by **ifadeo** » 01/12/2003 - 16:42

well, done guys....

that's the way i like it, i'm not alone....

thank you all for this interesting heated debate....

these are the things, which keep this board and the remix scene alive...

love & peace

ifadeo

Sonic Wanderer · Post by **Sonic Wanderer** » 01/12/2003 - 17:07

I too has raised this topic before. It started somewhat of a landslide in the forum. At that time there actually *was* some evildeeders messing about.
Everybody has their oppinions, but there are people functioning as sentinels within the R64, such as Larsec, that looks up vote statistics if you notice them your suspicions of unfair game.

I for one vote for tunes when I have the time. I always give my oppinion through the vote, and never vote for my own tunes.

I absolutely don't like people using multiple accounts to downvote, or people that try boosting their own rate by using the same accounts to vote for their own stuff. It has happened, and unfortunately will probably never disappear completely. =(

I rarely write reviews, or give feedback. Maybe I should start doing that, so people understand my voting.

Try not to look into the statistics and chart positions too much. I *know* there are people out there that like my stuff, and a good number of downloads count as much as a rating in my oppinion.

Anyhoo......... if you suspect faul play, notice the R64 crew, and they could possibly help determin what's going on.

Infamous · Post by **Infamous** » 01/12/2003 - 17:49

Wow this AGAIN

Ill give it on a personal level... i personally couldnt give a flying F if people voted me bad or good, everyone has their different tastes, some of you will love my music, some of you will think im shit.

Thats YOUR opinion and like me your all entitled to it, i rarely take notice of what colour my face is this week, but more on how many downloads i have had, THIS interests me far more.

As does a decent and fair review, whether its bad or brilliant all reviews to me help me gain more info and knowledge as to what i am doing wrong or right.

The chart system is going to cause the same kind of trouble it causes in the real charts. like it or not everyone is going to f.. each other over for a percentage everyone even those that say they dont (even me) would love to be where glyn is right now. no point denying it, you'd just be lying to me and to everyone else you said it too.
we all wanna be number one in the long run, top of the pile, king of our castle etc.... and differing personalitys and mental stability (not trying to imply anyone is crazy) will creat the factors that we have now.

you have your people here that want to get to the top and will stab and kick and bite and punch and backstab as much as possible to do it, and then you have those that want to do it by talent and work alone.
where would the world be without both types of people? i say balls to it.
let the bad voters vote bad. an explanation for your single vote might be a good idea to add (instead of just clicking a face on a java script box.... maybe have a "comment" box underneath and not allow votes to go through without SOME comment made.. maybe that'd help) at least then if someone thought i was shit... id see it. and think ok thank you... and so on.

Bad voting aint going to destroy the remix community, nor is hatred or competition, only thing that will ever ruin it is what ruins everything...
the lapse of time... sooner or later we'll all end up like those that we idolise and maybe if we are lucky people will remember us. if not... so what? its all fun whilst it lasts so lets have fun eh.

Post by **tas** » 01/12/2003 - 19:27

Ifideo, something seems to have gotten your goat up, why do you think tactical voting has made a point on your remix?

If there's a problem i will investigate, please give me your reasons as for starting this thread.

I would also like to refer anyone to the article section of remix64 to gain more knowledge about the voting system, it may answer your questions.

but, ifadeo, let us know exactly why you feel tactical voting is a problem with your personal tunes and i will investigate the matter.

Neil

Post by **tas** » 01/12/2003 - 19:45

Something i noticed receintly was the pre-voting (who are people who judge fairly and are trusted by jan) by and large we all seem to agree with each other. Noticing the overall pre-vote reached say 75% and then later looking at the charts at later when more public votes had been added i noticed a very simular type of percentage.

I'll be doing more research into this over the next month or two and publish the results. but from innitial research i found the final vote was give or take roughly the same. For me that spells that the voting system is fair, but as i say i will look into this more over the coming months.

Tactical voting does happen, i don't deny that and we have acted when suspicions have been found, but it isn't such a deal as it doesn't happen all that often. if there's one tactical bad vote in 30 votes it doesn't show! the change in percentage may go down by less than 1%. The only time it may show is when the initial public voting starts, say less than 10 votes. when a bad vote does show itself by a sudden drop of maybe as much as 10%. A bad vote tho doesn't mean a tactical vote. A drop of that nature would indeed however be checked just to make sure. A tactical voter doesn't just vote once tactically, but he'd tactically vote consistantly. This is where we can assertain wether it a normal bad vote or a tactical vote. His voting patterns are easy to see from the voting admin.

basically if you suspect foul play we will investigate it if you let us know why and what happened to make you think that tactical voting is a problem with your specific tune or a string of tunes.

I think many musicians are just too proud most of the time, and carn't bare the thought that not all people enjoy a piece opf music as much as they think it is as good.

Post by **tas** » 01/12/2003 - 19:58

I'm presuming if there's a problem is with Panther (your last remix). I've looked into and have noticed that the voting for this tune is very stable. Infact one of the most stable voting i've seen.

The results are:

8 Very good Votes
6 good votes
2 Average votes

ifadeo · Post by **ifadeo** » 01/12/2003 - 20:48

hi neil,

many thanks for great effort...

maybe it's a misunderstanding, i'm not talking 'bout a special remix...
i only wish there was feedback for a so called 'bad' vote, so that i can
improve my work... i mean if someone gives a remixer a 'bad' vote, the
remixer want to know why he get that 'bad' vote.... that's all...

you must now musicans are sensible creatures....

the thing 'bout 'tactical voting'...hmm i think 'bout it and this thread
helps me to see clearly now...

there's no problem anymore, but thanks again for the details and
your help...

cheers ifadeo

Makke · Post by **Makke** » 01/12/2003 - 20:49

DHS wrote:In this case the charts have no more reasons to be there.

I don't care much for the charts, I know my personal level of quality. Getting a good score in the charts is of course fun, but it's not my main reason for doing what I do.

And I also feel this issue has been discussed a couple of times too many. The voting system is fair. Some rotten eggs might want to spoil it, but all in all the charts give a good overview of the public opinion of the track. Anti-voting and tactical voting is not a big enough problem to justify the amount of forum threads it has generated.

I don't mean to diss anyone, this is a classical problem among "musicians". 10 good reviews/votes doesn't matter. If one is shit, we tend to focus on that one and feel dishonoured and attacked. It's the same thing everywhere musicians are active and publishing music, underground or in the mainstream. One bad review is enough to make you go bonkers. I do the same. I guess I just care less than others. I don't know.

Post by **tas** » 01/12/2003 - 21:16

i know what you mean ifadeo, thats what the reviewing system is for to give a more detailed inspection, unfortunately it's not used to it's potential.

If people would accomodate that more, i think most people would be happy, but it's not really taken off as much as i expected it would.

Makke: well sumerised mate. I can say no more =)

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 01/12/2003 - 22:28

> but it's not really taken off as much as i expected it would.

Because it's work for people! And because there are far too many releases to be able to review properly. So you end up reviewing none at all.

Chris

Post by **tas** » 01/12/2003 - 22:36

there ya go,... what ya want is not always what ya get!

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 02/12/2003 - 0:30

Tas wrote:The results are:

8 Very good Votes
6 good votes
2 Average votes

Nice information. Why can't this be displayed in the "Remix64 in-a-box"-window, maybe by clicking on the smilie ("further vote-investigations")?

I think it might be interesting to see how the percentage is being built.
A remix with a 50%-rating can either be of the "love or hate"-type, or more or less uninteresting, what may result in 50% too.

Monty

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 02/12/2003 - 1:13

Chris Abbott wrote:Because it's work for people! And because there are far too many releases to be able to review properly. So you end up reviewing none at all.

Well, for me it's purely a time thing. There was a time when I did quite a lot of R64 remix reviews, but R64 falls some way down my priority list (after paid work, Snub Communications, and Pixelsurgeon copy), hence my lack of contributions lately.

I certainly don't feel the sheer number of releases is all that daunting when it comes to reviewing - I just deal with whatever new stuff I've downloaded at the time.

Lagerfeldt · Post by **Lagerfeldt** » 02/12/2003 - 1:18

Interesting point Monty, actually the rating system now isn't as interesting IMO as long as you can't see *how* the votes are put together.

On the other hand I do care somewhat about the final percentage, *but* what I really care about are the many, many enthusiastic emails I get from people.