Commodore Remix

Lagerfeldt wrote:Hope that makes sense.

Yes, it sure does, and I'm aware that you know what you're talking about!

Still, you must agree with me on this... at more quiet passages in the music, you will not have 16-bit resolution anymore. (which, by today's dithering is somewhere around 19-bit resolution, but that's not the point here...). What I'm saying is that if the output-level is -18dB, there are some "unused bits", and the "signal to quantization-noise ratio" gets worse.

And, I personally don't enjoy CD's where I can hear the quantization noise in quiet passages. However, I must admit that these are older recordings I refer to, not made in 2004, probably using 16-bit DATs and a simple mic preamp. And, this is classical music, where a brickwalled bassdrum is nowhere to be seen!

This is, as I hope you understand, my opinion. Not the truth!

What I believe he is mainly referring to is especially the excessive *soft clipping and hard limiting* going on both in mixing and especially mastering - which has *no* positive effect on the music, except for destroying transient impact and clarity. Besides, soft clipping and hard limiting is bad for radio play due to the way broadcasting limiting works.

Yeah, Holger got me right
and by the way Pex , I DO LOVE MY COMPRESSORS too and i totally agree with the 16BIT problem
(refering to BOB KATZ's "more BITS..please")


cheers
TOM

What I'd really like to know is this: If I quantize the noise ratio of a peak level from the brickwalled bassdrum I'm using here, would the DC Offset that's been removed from the file be any good?

I mean, would EQ-ing the final track using software based hardware components included with the extra CD I got with my games magazine yesterday allow me to pre-clip the dynamics so that the ham and cheese sandwhich I'm trying to eat can be added to the brickwall? Would that work? I love you guys. Really!

Ahem, yeah, well....

Pex `Mahoney` Tufvesson wrote:
Still, you must agree with me on this... at more quiet passages in the music, you will not have 16-bit resolution anymore. (which, by today's dithering is somewhere around 19-bit resolution, but that's not the point here...). What I'm saying is that if the output-level is -18dB, there are some "unused bits", and the "signal to quantization-noise ratio" gets worse.

Whether you are constantly using all 16 bits in a recording is of no importance. In fact it would be ridiculous to say that music should constantly be using all the bits, since there would then be absolutely *no* dynamics ever (much like radio play). This is the same as saying that any film should constantly have something moving in the picture or all films should be in colour all the time.

Music needs dynamics to have an emotional and musical impact, if everything is loud all the time, nothing is loud, and all impact is lost. It's like the old saying, "if everything was green, what is green then?".

-18dBFS signals are rare in any kind of popmusic today, but do sometimes appear in classical or some accoustic/jazz recordings. Recorded properly with correct use of dithering, I hear no quantization noise on most records. But removing soft passages (or rather heavy downward compressing with post make-up gain of these passages) would defy the purpose and inner dynamics of any classical/jazz recording, and any potential quantization noise would be of much less importance than destroying a piece of music by annihilating the dynamics.

In conclusion, if any given piece of music is recorded properly in 24 bits, using internal dithering in plug ins while mixing (to avoid internal truncation in plug ins due to the expanded processing data), and the final mix is dithered to 16 bits using POW-r or IDR, and the dBFS level is around -3dB to -0.2 (rather -3dB to avoid post D/A clipping in most cd-players as described in the TC Electronic studies), it is a perfect master in these respects.

So I guess I don't agree at all (at least from what I understood of your opinion).

BTW I feel like a total nerd discussing these issue here I just hope no-one points fingers at me!

Yeah, yeah, but does that make my ham and cheese sandi any more compatible with the brickwall peak at -65db? No, Lager my friend, no one is pointing fingers at nerds. Not here. Nope.

We all know there's good and bad mastering in the pop industry and some songs are that poor its been highlighted as a bad example of mastering. The funny thing tho, at it always amuses me. I've never heard the everday CD purchaser say....Nope, i don't like this britany spears song cos it's poorly mastered!

Just thought i'd throw that in, dunno why really. Just one of my random thoughts i have from time to time.

Tas wrote:I've never heard the everday CD purchaser say....Nope, i don't like this britany spears song cos it's poorly mastered!

You're absolutely right, Tas! The everyday CD purchaser don't care. Which is exactly what I've heard from _all_ everyday people I've talked to about mixes/music I've mastered. They say "nice cover design" and "It's great" all the time, and never "you should have used the "ultra-noise-shaping" in your finalizer instead of the normal one, I get a headache of this -88dB quantization noise in the passband frequencies".

Let's face it, 99.99999% of the earth's population live happily without knowing such details!

And for the other 0.00001%.... here's for you:

Lagerfeldt wrote:if everything is loud all the time, nothing is loud, and all impact is lost.

You have a point, Holger. And depending on with which eyes we see the world, everything is right. You are right. And so am I, we're actually talking about the same thing but with different words.

And with properly 24-bit-recorded, mixed and mastered and then finally 16-bit-dithered music with modern DAW-equipment, music can be made beautiful. It isn't always done, but it can be done.

I'm still waiting for the next widely accepted audio format to pop up, until then I'll have to live with cropping my music to 16-bits, 44.1kHz. Maybe Intel's 192kHz 7.1 surround-successor to AC97 is a good start - since it will take ages or forever until DVD-audio makes it.

</nerd>

i was just asking for a bit more :

dum dumdum dum dum <b>damdumdamdum</b>


bye bye and you are damn right PEX to say that mostly nobody cares (that's the secret of mp3 probably) but i do

atb
Thomas

Lagerfeldt wrote:I hope they give us a really really good deal on the update! Well, since Apple has taken over it's bound to be bad for existing customers service-wise.

The word on the street (mainly the http://www.osxaudio.com forums) is that the upgrade from gold/platinum 5/6 is $199 which in this weird economy translates probably to something like 250 EUR. Not bad of a deal in any case, although I do feel a little annoyed that my Space Designer is now worth ~nothing

Oh well, at least I get full EXS24 and all the other stuff for cheap. And if they include the new stuff, I'll have to abandon my V-Amp in favor of the Emagic thingie, the amp sims on Garage Band _really_ rock.

As for Genelecs - I'm just drooling over a pair of 1030a's to replace my Tannoys. No space or money for those high end pieces.

Sumppi

tom wrote: 4800 euro for each, means 9600 a pair, so it is more here
But they are worth the buy

tom

HOLY CRAP
Speakers for the price of a new car, well almost , hehe

XGener8or wrote:HOLY CRAP
Speakers for the price of a new car, well almost , hehe

Yeah ya right it is really expensive (but they have even bigger ones )
Anyway since i have them , it is totally different to listen and to mix music i am really enjoying the 1038B and i'm asking myself "how could i lived without 'em? "

bye
Thomas

PARDON? YOU'LL HAVE TO TURN YOUR SPEAKERS DOWN, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

wha... wh.. what ... eh r... ah.. one moment Chris, my speakers are far too loud , i can't hear you

cheers
Thomas

sumppi wrote:...I'll have to abandon my V-Amp in favor of the Emagic thingie, the amp sims on Garage Band _really_ rock...
Sumppi

last week i've got my new behringer v-amp 2, i love it....
it sounds much better then my other guitar multi-fx like korg ax1000 or
that old zoom crap which i still have(time to sell.... ).....

did you got a chance to compare v-amp against line6 pod ??
would be interesting.....



cheers ifadeo