Progression, not Regression

[Waz]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree to with a lot of what Warren says.

That's fair enough. I knew when I wrote this article it was going to be controversial. However, just by talking about it I hope it does inspire people to try something for a change.

For a start, while I agree that a select few tunes have by now been covered often enough, I think the example of the Last Ninja games isn't a good one

It was a difficult decision when writing: what to include and not to include as examples of what had been remixed to death. What I found out was that various subtunes of The Last Ninja had been done a lot, and after listening to one or two of them (not forgetting a few versions on that dreadful Output 64 CD either) I just felt really bored and uninspired.

Also, I think doing things different just for the sake of it isn't really productive and comes dangerously close to l337-ness

Apologies if it may have come across that way. I'm not asking people to be different just for the sake of it, only that they take it into consideration about what they'd like to hear and maybe try and listen to something different.

If people out there do enjoy the more well-known stuff, why is it bad to give them what they want?

Because you're in danger of overdoing a good thing. Dance artists often end up in obscurity because people get fed up of hearing 15-20 mixes of the same single, they wish for innovation, new tracks and something else to dance to. Similarly, if you look at the real music world, think of all the cover versions that chart just because people remember the original, no matter how bad the cover is (Atomic Kitten murdering Blondie's classic The Tide Is High being a classic example) - and while rubbish like that is in the chart, it stops new artists who can actually sing, play their own instruments and do innovative things, which is a crying shame.

Although the C64 remix scene is different in that everything's a cover, the same rule applies: many remixes or covers of a familiar song mean you either get bored of the remixes of them, or you even (as has happened in my case) lose the love for the original.

To me, it's pretty insulting to hint that I'm apparently backwards because I prefer tunes that originate from the 80s and are by the cult composers like Hubbard or Galway

I never would imply that, after all nostalgia is a good thing, if not overly done. Think how many people use emulation these days as proof of how people like nostalgia. But it has to be carefully balanced: too much nostalgia is a bad thing. Look at the sheer number of 1980s compilation CDs out there as proof of that.

There's also many good demo tunes made in the 80s that don't even get remixed either. Think like this: Compunet helped Hubbard a lot to get his reputation going, yet there were many other composers around on Compunet who were also to either make it in game tunes and/or be good demo composers. Some of their work even never gets remixed, which is a shame. As I said, Reyn's Nexus 6581 CD was a welcome exception because he appreciated that side of things as well.

I beleive Radiohead is a prime example for the wrong idea: I'm convinced a lot of people just buy their records because their told how great that band is insetad of a genuine liking of their songs.

The only way (and this goes for everyone) to decide is for yourself and not follow public opinion in this case. As I said, I'm not a fan, yet I appreciate what they try to do when I've listened to their stuff. I don't own any of their CDs, but that's my perogative. My CD collection is extremely varied though, ranging from acoustic to thrash metal, because I believe that there's always new artists out there who are doing something good musically that may merit my attention.

C64 music for me IS about nostalgia, and I believe that's its biggest strength - if today somebody can compose a cool new tune, I'd like to know why they don't do so on current equipment.

Because as a composer they like a challenge: many of them have composed for real or on other formats, but they like still managing to cram a good tune into three channels to see what can be done with limited technology. After all, being lo-fi has never stopped Stereolab, has it?

And many newer C64 composers can compose on proper equipment, I am quite sure of that. In fact some of them have even made C64 remixes and are on RKO.

Also, there's lots of really innovative stuff around (think of Mahoney's remixes, to just name one example)

I like some of his work, of course. Mahoney was also a C64 composer himself back in the day (check out his tunes in HVSC) but he's at least also remixed some demo tunes too. Check out his mix of Rhaa Lovely 2 which is pretty nice. I respect what he attempts.

I believe being progressive just for the sake of it would speed up the way into obscurity, with casual and/or nostalgic SID fans being left behind

It's a two-way thing. Yes, there has to be progression, but it has to come from the fans as well as the remixers. The fans should wish for more. If they're happy with just having game tunes, I am sure there's plenty of remixers that will cater for them. I'm not calling for a complete stop to game remixes either - that would be daft, and I know that.

Besides, being a C64 remixer is anti-mainstream anyway, regardless of what you do. You're not doing things by the norm just by being involved in the C64 somewhere, and that's been always the case since the C64 first started off. At least, that's why I compose tunes for the machine anyway. It's different.

I do thank you for your points though: at least you've given it some consideration and that's all I can ask for.

[DHS]

However, at the same time I think the emotional involvement comes as much from playing the game as well as the music. The music is only part of the whole experience. After all, as good as Wizball is as a game, it wouldn't have gone together half as well if the playability or graphics were lacking, no matter how good Galway's soundtrack is.

Half of the "classics" i love were actually ripped from games and used in demos. For example, i never had, seen or played:

-Kentilla.
-Master of Magic.
-One man and his droids.
-Chimera.
-Thanatos.

The list could go on forever.

This "nostalgy" is tied to a particular part of my youth, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm aware there are many braves still composing using the sid, making the impossible possible and putting down some damn good notes, but, have a realistic look at it:

expanding what weblaus said, the sid chip was a great sounding synth at the times, but i see little sense rely only on it today to make music.

There cold be very great sounding sid today, but there are a ton more on Ps2, xbox, pc and gamecube (just to name a few).

And, since i play ps2 and pc games, i find more sense in remixing, for example, a ps2 or psx game soundtrack than any 2000's sid tune out there.

cheers.

[Vip]

Just wanted to add my two cents, since I'm one of those nutballs who're still using the c64 to attempt original compositions.

Settling the remix dispute, you remix what you want to remix, period. A C64 game/demo music remix is hardly a mainstream concept, and most of us do this as a hobby. And if your only interest lies with remixing the gametunes that bring feelings of nostalgia to surface, power to you. By the way, Waz, You don't need 'the whole thing' to enjoy something. For example, I could listen to the opening tune of "Terra Cresta" all day without ever having the need to see the actual game, it's that powerful.

However, it's a little sad to see such little interest in demo music remixes, but I guess that's logical if the only drive is nostalgia - all that is c64 has stopped in a certain year, and what comes out beyond that point is not worth the time or effort, since the chip's ancient technology now.

True - within this paradigm.

I chose another paradigm. I chose the paradigm that music is an artform. I chose the paradigm that great music can be done on any platform, with any tools at your disposal, as long as creativity allows you to perform well on composition, arrangement and those tools themselves.

As a result, my musical interests are very broad - I listen to classical music, jazz, techno, all sorts of metal & alternative music, synth, and demo music (pc, amiga, c64, ...). Within these genres, I'm constantly on the lookout for music which innovates, which dares to take new steps.

By the way, all these genres are still pretty much alive, even though some (most) of them are hellishly outdated by modern times. The main reason for this is that in each of these genres, innovators are working hard to squeeze out new twists and turns, using the limited 'hardware' at their disposal. Freestyle jazz is a perfect example of this: put two, three jazz players together and let them go buck wild - you just might be astounded by the things they're able to pull off.

C64 music is no different. It's about creating the right instruments and composition to express your artistic 'vibe'. In my case, it's about minimalism - how can I, using just three puny channels and limited waveforms, capture a certain feeling? How can I combine these channels for an optimal effect? These might seem simple questions having simple answers but really, they are not.

As an example of this, a while ago, there was an audio/video competition organized by the Beastie Boys. Any entries on any platforms were okay, as long as they were Beastie Boys-related. The BBs themselves were to judge the entries. Solely because of that, the members in my group, Padua, decided to give it a shot and send in a c64 entry. I volunteered as musician.

Now originally, I wanted to do a Sabotage/Intergalactic remix. I began work, but after some weeks it became clear that those tunes are too powerful in their own right to be combined, so I opted to go Intergalactic instead. Let me assure you - the conversion was not that easy, since you have to create a song, using your minimalistic tools, which has the same dynamism/spirit as the original, yet carries a few twists to ensure that it's not 'just a conversion'.

That took some time as well, but in the end, a satisfactory sid tune was created and the entry finished. How it fared? Well, we expected a (rather) low finish, but quite surprisingly, we won the competition. From the forums, a lot of people disagreed strongly, preferring a professional mp3 remix over our entry, but in the end - the Beastie Boys gave us the edge. Because we dared to do this. Because, in their opinion, we did it right. As a bonus, they appreciated the platform, understanding the challenge involved. Coming from them, that was very nice to read.

The challenge is as high as creating a captivating sax solo, or writing a lead to express powerful lyrics. And how far do you dare to go? Music is, in effect, an art. And art is not tied to platforms/hardware. Therefore, using the 'ancient chip' argument is void. It's about making music - otherwise, why even bother using ancient instruments such as a guitar?


Have a listen at the tunes in the /Various HVSC directory. Yes, that's a lot of work, but there really are a few innovative gems out there, or composers with strong compositions, even if it's 'only 3 limited synth voices'. Here are a few composers which, in my opinion, fall under these categories: Ed, Jeff, Scortia, Wacek, Wizard and, in the general HVSC directory, Metal. Check them out - you just might find something which 'clicks' beyond the year 1990.

I'm certain that tracks such as C64Music\Music\Metal\Trip_2_Mars.sid, or C64Music\Music\Various\A-F\Ed\I_Miss_You.sid could be remixed into something very powerful, something which won't even hint at their c64 roots anymore, and it'd be a shame to omit them and the rest simply because they appeared after nostalgia froze time.

And that's about my two cents. Thanks for reading,
Vincent
aka Vip/ViruZ

[Chappers]

I'll put my tuppence into this debate by saying that I've been guilty of not being very open-minded when it comes to the music produced in the scene starting with the original SID music through to the present day music.

Prime example was Nexus 6581. I was attracted to buying it on the strength of it coming from Reyn. However, when I saw the track listing, I was truthfully slightly disappointed as I didn't recognise a lot of the tracks remixed. At the time, I continued to play it only because it was a Reyn CD but I now love all the tracks on the CD. I certainly didn't give the CD much of a chance in the beginning and was looking for the well-known SIDs to be covered and not taking a chance with any new tunes which may pleasantly surprise me.

If the scene is going to continue to be popular and interesting, it needs a bit of re-educating particularly for people like myself to not become permanently attached to a comfort zone of nostalgia with well-known SIDs converted for remixes.

I guess I have finally come to the point of saturation within my own comfort zone of Rob, Martin, Jeroen etc and am looking for something new, particularly in the remixes available. After all, I won't be able to fully appreciate what I do like without at least sampling music which at first glance doesn't seem appealing.

I remember reading Reyn Ouwehand's interview in Commodore Zone where he was asked what was his favourite SID tune. He said it was Sweet by Johannes Bjerregaard. I had never heard of that tune before then and, in my blinkered approach, wouldn't have considered it. I would have therefore gone for something by Rob Hubbard or Martin Galway for example. When I did play the tune, I absolutely loved it yet I wouldn't have touched it otherwise and therefore never heard it.

Thanks for your article Waz. It's really opened my eyes

Paul

[Waz]

By the way, Waz, You don't need 'the whole thing' to enjoy something. For example, I could listen to the opening tune of "Terra Cresta" all day without ever having the need to see the actual game, it's that powerful.

For certain compositions, it depends on the game. Also, like DHS mentioned, it's also down to where you as an individual heard the game tune first. If, like some, you had a demo where the music was ripped and it appeared either as a demo or a standalone music rip thingy, it'll have been that where it grabbed you so to speak. I suppose as an old games player and having owned a lot of originals, the nostalgic memories I had may be the same as some - but not others as you rightly point out.

I chose the paradigm that music is an artform. I chose the paradigm that great music can be done on any platform, with any tools at your disposal, as long as creativity allows you to perform well on composition, arrangement and those tools themselves.

And that's part of the point. You're just one of a number of modern day C64 composers that people should respect. Even within the confines of the C64's SID, there's still a heck of a lot you can do (and that goes for me as well, I still have a lot to learn even now.) - innovation shouldn't stop just because nostalgia has stopped.

the Beastie Boys gave us the edge. Because we dared to do this. Because, in their opinion, we did it right. As a bonus, they appreciated the platform, understanding the challenge involved. Coming from them, that was very nice to read.

And it's the same level of understanding we need people to appreciate now so that they can see that the C64 itself isn't just about nostalgia, not just about game tunes. Horizons broadened, the remix scene gets more varied yet still satisfies the game fans - and everyone wins.

I'm certain that tracks such as C64Music\Music\Metal\Trip_2_Mars.sid, or C64Music\Music\Various\A-F\Ed\I_Miss_You.sid could be remixed into something very powerful,and it'd be a shame to omit them and the rest simply because they appeared after nostalgia froze time.

Hear hear! My point exactly. It's why in effect I suggested people to check Shark's Best of VARIOUS playlist, as it gives you some guide as to what SID fans like in there. It gets you started. Then, as a listener, you may even find more tunes you like and appreciate what people like Vip are trying to do - keep on the tradition of classic C64 tunes and define new classics. After all, as good as Crest's Deus Ex Machina was, it was Jeff's compositions that really helped it along (and they really do need a 6581 equipped C64 to hear them properly)

Cheers for your thoughts on this one.

[Feekzoid]

My POV is thusly:

Bollocks!

I for one write music/cover C64 works not on the basis of "cor! No one's done that yet!" or "I can do better than that one!" and especially not "if I do that one then LOADS of people will download it!"

For me its a personal thing. I cover a C64 track because in my mind I envision a C64 tune being played in a certain way, and thats why I went and did a couple of the Ninja tunes - because I wanted to hear what *I* could do with them. In the same way I've covered C64 tunes that no-one else had because I felt inspired to do it for some reason or other. (Microprose soccer subtune/The Vindicator/Meanwhile the Planet)

Sometimes I've wanted to cover a C64 tune for ages, but not felt I had the tech to do so. eg: My cover of my own Galway C64 remix (Green Beret/Comic Bakery) - I *needed* to have an acoustic guitar strumming in there, and until I had the ability to reproduce that I did not want to attempt it. I must admit to being a bit miffed tho when some of the comments were kind of "*yawn* another Comic bakery mix"

For me, its a bonus that people like my music, and I sure as hell like positive feedback.

However, I dont really do requests, and there have been many. Sometimes requesting remixing of my own C64/Amiga tracks. I may do some of those at some point, who knows?

I've even re-worked my own "Analogue Ninja" to play as a ringtone on my phone! - Again, a bit of selfish self-composition.

So, I'm sorry if my next tune turns out to me "another" Last Ninja tune... but then it might be some barely known game tune. I dont know.

I can understand from a listeners point of view the repetitiousness of hearing multiple versions of the same tune... but on the other hand.. there are some tremendous "alternative" versions of singular songs... the recent "Outrun" acoustic guitar mix was tremondous for example.

I realise I have probably not furthered the debate any here, but my own opinion is that I dont like being told what to write, or being moaned at for covering a track that every other composer has done as well. Afterall, most of us have our own definable style, and I for one like to hear The dead-guys, Puffy, Instant Remedy et all supply their "take" on eg a TLN track.

*FeekZoid climbs back in his hole and pulls the door almost closed, except for a slit for his eyes to peep through*

[Waz]

For me its a personal thing.

For many remixers, it's a personal thing as to what they'd like to hear done well, and that's natural. But considering the many good original pieces you did on the C64 for example, wouldn't it be nice if someone else (not you, as you know your own stuff of course) took one of your own tunes and did something different with it? I'm sure you'd appreciate how others interpreted your demo tunes of old.

Although there is a part-onus on the remixers to experiment, it's also down to the public to seek out cool modern tunes also, and maybe be inspired themselves?

I must admit to being a bit miffed tho when some of the comments were kind of "*yawn* another Comic bakery mix"

Unfortunately, that's the problem with a well-covered tune: no matter how well it's done, if it's something the public have heard remixed a lot before then yes they do get bored. Nothing you can do about that one, except take that on board and produce something that you like that is a bit different, that'll knock their socks off. Variety is the spice of life, after all.

I dont like being told what to write, or being moaned at for covering a track that every other composer has done as well.

No one likes being told, hence my article was supposed to be of the suggestive tone, and I'm sorry if you've taken that the wrong way. However, the ones who are brave and do experiment with a wider range of tunes get respect from me personally as they're seeking new and fresh innovation.

Let's be positive; yes, the C64 remix scene is developing, and from the humble days of pre-Back in Time 1 to where it now, it has done. We now need to be brave, take the next step, and expand that scene. And that goes for the listeners too.

[tom]

well, it seems it was the right decision to remix "SUPERNOVA" which is a pretty unknown sid-tune of a very unknown composer.

cheers
TOM::::....

[weblaus]

Unfortunately, that's the problem with a well-covered tune: no matter how well it's done, if it's something the public have heard remixed a lot before then yes they do get bored.

I'm still not convinced by that particular point: Even decades later, people still love e.g. The Beatles or ABBA, and that's even without their songs being remixed. And if they are covered, there's apparently lots of interest, as well, even if it's not exactly inspired work (think A*Teens).

I strongly believe that the very best (or best-liked, which probably is the better description) SID tunes, of which there likely aren't that many, can stand on their own and survive lots of cover versions - and if these are done well, people will continue to like them, too.

[tas]

thats a key point actually weblaus. Sorry to rant on about sanxion but it's always a good one to compare. If someone is gonna remix Sanxion then they should indeed make a better version than that which already exsits for example. There's plenty of sanxion's out there on RKO and CD, many of the RKO ones are at best only half decient (no dispect).

So basically if there a 20th remix of a tune then it's upto the musician to blow our socks off (hard to do when you've heard the terrific Karma 64 version). I don't want to hear another AVERAGE sanxion.

Basically if a tune has been remixed umpteen times then pray don't do it unless you think you can do it better. Otherwise go for something else.

[Larsec]

First off, very nice article Waz, and a very nice discussion to boot

OK, here are my thoughts.

I am a remixer of C64 tunes. I started doing this to learn more about music. SIDs were a good place to start because they held a lot of the theoretical ideas of musc and at the same time easy to expand upon since they were so limited, polyphnic wise. It fun to me, not a serious business... and though I forget that at times that's what it is.

I make this music for myself first and foremost but if anyone else besides myself can get something out of what I do, that's even better. I might be pursuaded into making a remix of a particular tune, since this is fun and a learning experience for me. Challenges are good...

When I started I sought the tunes I could remember from my teens when I sat amazed infront of the screen. After that I went on to browsing the HVSC folders of composers I knew, the ones that had composed the tunes I could remember (in my case mostly, Hubbard, Galway, Follin and Daglish). I have found a ton of tunes I want to remix from these guys. Many of them have already been remixed, some heavily. The first thing i do when I want to do a remix is check RKO of all remixes of the tune. that way I avoid doing a remix of a tune in a style it has already been remixed in (this has already 'cost' me 3 or 4 remixes).

I don't like to limit myself musically so I come up with some different takes on some tunes, but I don't try to be diffrent just to be different. I am doing it because I am love so many different styles of music that it is bound to be very varied. Like the Terra Cresta tune I am working on at the moment. I don't think anyone has made a remix like it of a C64 tune, thought about it, or thought that Terra Cresta could be done this way. I am not doing this to top anyone or doing it just to do something different. I am doing it because it was an idea I got and I thought it could work.

I think it is also an issue of styles. f you keep getting thrown one dance mix after another in you face of the same tune, it might just get boring after a while... Unless maybe you love dance music. Others might listen to a tune in a large variety of styles if they loved the original tune. And of course there's the mix. You love a tune but there are some styles you are not too fond of so you avoid some of the mixes of that particular tune.

I will now stop rambling and say this: Waz, you're words have made a difference. I am now working on a tune I found in the VARIOUS folder. It can be done, all you have to do is look long enough

[Waz]

I'm still not convinced by that particular point: Even decades later, people still love e.g. The Beatles or ABBA

The original compositions, yes. Just like the original C64 pieces. No one tires of them that much. I'm sure in 20 years time people will still like the loading theme from Rambo etc.

However if you do hear 20 mixes of one SID tune, like Neil mentioned, if someone is going to do it, they have to really be the best version out there to convince people, and that's if they get past the casual browser on RKO who'll look there and go "another Lightforce remix? Why should I bother?" And believe me, I've seen this happen.

[Analog-X64]

Here are some of my random thoughts.

- I didnt see anyone touch the subject of "MONEY" with all these CD's being produced and sold "Commercialism" is creeping into the Scene, is Commercialism a good thing? or a bad thing?

- I agree there are tons of other C64 Tunes that need a new lease on life and are waiting to be remixed, but people should be allowed to remix whatever they want. You have a choice, if you dont like 40 remixes of
"The Last Ninja" than dont download them. When you are watching Television and there is a program on that you dont like, what do you do? Sit there and endure it? or change the channel? I only download / buy what I want to hear. If I dont like "Gina Sisters Tune" why should I bother downloading it and than complaining about it?

- I would like to make a remix of "Arkanoid" as my C64 Remix debute but with the quality of Remixes so High, any attempt on remixing on my part compared to the regulars will sound like a child playing a xylophone.

- If you want more progression than the scene needs to make sure not too become ELITEST and allow new talent to enter the scene. If the scene looks unfriendly it will scare away new talent.

- let the remixers mix whatever they want, if you dont like what has been remixed than dont download it, that alone should give the remixer maybe they should move onto remixing something else.

I'm just ranting

[Vosla]

just have read analog-x random thoughts :

- commerce is always a two-sided sword for a "cult" like commodore nostalgica. it may bring new flesh to join our ranks of sid nuts, it may get a hype to be forgotten.. again. with all those retro-shows you could get fed up very easily...

- the other c64 tunes out there, waiting to be remixed... well, you are a composer... a FREE composer... do like a sid, remix it. don't like it, ignore it. if you remix an "over-remixed" sid, live with the fact that there are feedbacks like "i liked glen's version more". choose an unknown sid (maybe a "weak" one) and, maybe, nobody cares or you stand out of the mass with it.
i think that's all in your mind, what you expect your remix will be and if you want to please a special audience or just composing for yourself. i see an analogy with my penciling; only about 10% of my pictures leave my lab to be seen by other people (not that i am a brilliant artist but i sold concepts for hard bucks), 90% are to be held forever in my vault and my last thing in life will be burning the lot. NYAHAHAhaa...oops.

- arkanoid on a xylophone isn't a bad idea. maybe you should try to let it sound like it's played by a child. dunno why but i like the idea. =)

- 1337 is shit. every 12 years old thinks he is. everything starts to get down the drain if a 1337 shows up. and btw. i hate hax0r. it should be really embarassing for a grown up to behave like that. you heard me, ROMMERSCHEIDT ??
nah, just kidding. elitist thinking just kills innovation.

- let the remixers mix whatever they want, if you dont like what has been remixed than dont download it, that alone should give the remixer maybe they should move onto remixing something else. (...) I'm just ranting

bingo! (oops, didn't i just downloaded every bit from remix.kwed.com ??)

[Chris Abbott]

> I didnt see anyone touch the subject of "MONEY"
Because it's not relevant to the discussion, which is about too many people
remixing the same old game tunes. Sounds like you're just itching
to make it an issue though.

Chris