Commodore Remix

I know what your saying, i just don't find this issue up there on my list of worries. Yes, there's some aspects of it that don't feel right i know. But, for me it's like conspiracy theories where people think so much more of a situation that's actually true or even worse.. WHAT COULD HAPPEN!

some of your suggestions here Craig and i don't mean to sound condesending sound very wild and more of a matter what could happen than what is likely to happen.

Tas—for me, it was a case of thinking you had odd priorities. You're angry at Microsoft, but okay with our government putting forward draconian legislation, which infringes civil liberties to a massive degree?

Yes, some of the things I mentioned were "might happens" (although, to be frank, I'll be *amazed* if the government doesn't sell off bits of the information—after all, it did this exact same thing with the electoral roll). However, the costs are not a "might happen". Only yesterday, Clarke suggested the poor would not have to pay full-whack for the new IDs, meaning the middle-class may end up paying three-figures for a five-year passport as of 2006—the equivalent of about four times what we pay now. The various fines (such as for not telling the government you have moved house) will happen, so the government can recoup some of its costs.

Also, as No2ID rather skilfully puts, "you will not be required to use a card unless you wish to work, use the banking or health system, travel or receive benefits." The bill includes the following new list of crimes, which have penalties ranging from a minimum £1,000 fine, to two-year jail sentence:

Refusal to obey an order from the Secretary of State (!)
Failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card
Failure to renew a card
Failure to submit to fingerprinting
Failure to provide information demanded by the government
Failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time (!)
Failure to notify the Secretary of State of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address)
Failure to obey an order to register or providing false information will also constitute an offence.

In other words, if you decide "I don't want a card", and don't show up for fingerprinting/iris scanning (which is another of those "guilty until proven innocent things"), you'll likely be fined up to £2,500 for each session you don't attend, and won't have access to public services anyway. Oh, and if you try and appeal legally, the Secretary of State has the right to increase the penalty, which should stop all those wishy-washy liberals trying to buck this new wonderful system.

The government has already lied about the card and its implications a number of times, and for something like this—where the government will forever control this information, and where those that don't comply will either be massively fined, jailed, or not have access to public services (even those they've paid for via national insurance and taxes)—it may not top my overall list of worries, but in terms of *political* issues, I really cannot think of anything that's more important right now, with the possible sole exception of a certain illegal war that's still raging.

Still, I'll shut up now, as it's obvious I'm bugging people here.

Of course, there's one important aspect to this whole ID card discussion. The computer system. Government computer projects always
a) go over budget
b) fail to meet the specifications
c) suffer feature creep
d) throw up stories of mis-identification

With any luck, all the problems will delay implementing the card until we're all dead and buried

Refusal to obey an order from the Secretary of State (!)

(That's one of those silent laws isn't it?, a law thats only enforced upon extreme circumstances. I bet 99% of the population won't know it's even there)

Failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card

(Comon sense really? You wouldn't fail to report a stolen credit card, so surely reporting a missing ID card makes sense?)

Failure to renew a card

(I wasn't aware that a card needed renewing. Not keen on the hassle factor of that - Thats a quirk for me i don't like)

Failure to submit to fingerprinting

(A GOOD THING SURELY? i know the argument is that this card won't stop crime, but surely a national database of fingerprints is bound to be beneficial in capturing offenders? no?)

Failure to provide information demanded by the government.

(Well, isn't that law now? i mean the government can ask for almost anything anyway?)

Failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time (!)

(Again, this will be for offenders of the legislation, and won't be used for people who stay within the law i suspect)

Failure to notify the Secretary of State of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address)

(Again, comon sense. No good having an ID card if your details are wrong)

Failure to obey an order to register or providing false information will also constitute an offence.

(Well, falsifying is bound to get you into trouble, regardless).


To the Microsft point.. The reason i don't like the idea of Microsoft's measures is simply i don't like microsoft. All they will do is use the information gained to supply their own greed and make their anti competition stance even more effective. Thats why i don't like that, it's not really privacy that bothers me here, it's more to do with bad cats getting greedier)

In general, Governments ask for what they can get, and work out what to do with it later (tax, laws, whatecer): in this case, they're asking for a lot of extra powers, and will probably use them sooner than we think: just the powers they're asking for are pretty scary, because it for once and for all turns Government into an "us against them" situation. The Government is supposed to be "of us" and "for us". But it isn't. And that's now painfully clear. I just wish there was an opposition worth voting for. But, if the ID card plan comes in, there will be many votes on offer for the first party to go to the polls on a purely "Anti ID card" stand: and they'll probably take seats like UKIP did at the European Elections, on a protest vote. It's just amazing that Labour haven't alienated enough of their core supporters to lose the next election. What do they have to do? Start murdering babies? (although according to David Icke, they already have

This Government is sly, murderous (David Kelly, Iraqis, others), bent on controlling what it sees as a potentially dangerous public, untruthful (Iraq, Health Service queues, any statement about crime), and driven by a dangerous zealot with an apparent Messiah complex. It disgusts me more than the previous Tory Government ever did. And I _voted_ for Labour in 1997. What puzzles me is why people keep voting for the bastards!

Not that I expect any better from Howard's lot, but they'll probably be too busy backstabbing each other and shagging their Secretaries to do any real damage. Not voting for them though...

Hey, controversy Maybe I should have made this thread an editorial

[edit] forgot "Greedy and petty"

Chris

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Failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card
(Comon sense really? You wouldn't fail to report a stolen credit card, so surely reporting a missing ID card makes sense?)
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Last time I lost my credit card, Lloyds didn't threaten me with a two-year jail sentence if I didn't tell them about it. The law also doesn't distinguish between you knowing whether your card is damaged/lost or not. Basically, if you cannot produce your card when it's asked for, you will be fined.

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Failure to renew a card

(I wasn't aware that a card needed renewing. Not keen on the hassle factor of that - Thats a quirk for me i don't like)
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This relates to when you move. The chances are you will have to "buy" a new card each time the major details on it change.

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Failure to submit to fingerprinting

(A GOOD THING SURELY? i know the argument is that this card won't stop crime, but surely a national database of fingerprints is bound to be beneficial in capturing offenders? no?)
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This is a case of "guilty until proven innocent". Why does the state have the right to have MY fingerprints on file, when I've never committed a crime? Also, why do you not have the right to refusal? This truly is "police state" mentality—essentially, objectors are being threatened with a two-year jail sentence. That is NOT a democracy in action—that is a dictatorship.

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Failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time (!)

(Again, this will be for offenders of the legislation, and won't be used for people who stay within the law i suspect)
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Actually, if you don't show up when you're supposed to, you can be fined/jailed, according to the legislation.

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Failure to notify the Secretary of State of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address)

(Again, comon sense. No good having an ID card if your details are wrong)
---

Moving house is a stressful business. Things get forgotten. Forget this and you'll be two grand worse off—or in jail.

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Failure to obey an order to register or providing false information will also constitute an offence.

(Well, falsifying is bound to get you into trouble, regardless).
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Falsifying information—fair enough. Failure to register? I thought this wasn't a _compulsory_ scheme?...

To the Microsft point.. The reason i don't like the idea of Microsoft's measures is simply i don't like microsoft. All they will do is use the information gained to supply their own greed and make their anti competition stance even more effective.

And what makes you think the British government will be any different?

Chris Abbott wrote:I just wish there was an opposition worth voting for.

The Liberal Democrats are totally against ID. They also happen to have the most sensible policies on education and taxation—at least compared to Labour and the Tories. It was also clearly against the war in Iraq (the only major party to directly go against the government on this), and actually seems to give a s—— about the people, rather than a quest for power.

Interestingly, UKIP (who I abhor, seeing as I'm one of those wishy-washy liberals) are also against ID cards. At least the party has one thing going for it.

What puzzles me is why people keep voting for the bastards!

"Because voting for anyone other than the Tories and Labour is a wasted vote" is the typical line. However, if some current polls actually went right through to election night, Labour would be unceremoniously booted out of power, and the Lib Dems would be in opposition. (One poll I saw had the Tories on 30%, Lib Dems on 27%, and Labour on 26%, with UKIP in double figures.) With the track record of the Tories, that would give the Lib Dems a clear platform to actually be in power at the following election.

Basically most of the things are not more than annoying - for now. Imagine this technology in the hands of the wrong people. Imagine a totalitarian regime employing such technologies. Many things are going the wrong way with western nations if you ask me, and all these new surveillance methods are a great foundation to create a police state.

Btw, how come Bush could get reelected? I don't know, but I find it strange that there are documented cases of some of the new electronic US voting booths barfing out the first results before someone even voted.

I am not at all into conspiracy theories, I just walk through life with open eyes, and I reccomend everyone to do the same. But I'm afraid for most people it is "Ignorance is bliss!".

- Markus

BTW: I was really looking forward to finally grab a copy of Half Life 2, but since it <i>requires</i> non anonymous online registration to run, I'm not going to buy it. It is an outrage, and I can't see why so many people just don't care about it; ironically such methods only affect rightful buyers - software pirates will certainly spread a version that will work without such Big Brother technologies. I'm not saying pirate-copy the game, but do a boycott!

BTW2: Likewise it pisses me of that I have to endure rebukes about how evil it is to download movies from the web / copy them... every time I just <b>paid</b> to watch a film (by either buying it/renting it/watching it at the cinema). I guess pirated versions will have this information trimmed?

I think this is a great debate, and Craig you are deffinitely making out some constructive points and i applaud that.

We deffinitely sit on the opposite side of the fence with this one. I do have reservations about it i admit. We've been here before with various other Governments like with the poll tax. Which i bitterly opposed.

Like with the poll tax, what will happen is that this will come in whichever government is in power. What needs to be done is to give it time like we did the poll tax, if it fails then vote with your feet.

Thats how it worked with the poll tax.

As an aside, no wonder Michael Howard is in favour: apart from being in favour when he tried to introduce them, if he gets into power he gets all the benefits of the card scheme, but none of the blame!

He's beneath contempt.

Chris

Lman—I agree on all points. I find it amazing that the US is currently trying to push through a law that would make it ILLEGAL for you to skip advertisements. Ads are there to attract your attention—they shouldn't be compulsory.

Although I admit to enjoying conspiracy theories, I very rarely subscribe to them. With regards to the ID card thing, I actually find it far more frightening than ANY conspiracy theory, simply because it's happening, created by people on your TV every night, and with an apathetic British public too lazy to go against it when they decide it's not for them.

In many ways, we get what we deserve. I bet only a tiny percentage of voters in the UK read the party manifestos, which means they are uninformed. People vote Labour because their parents did, or because they somehow believe them to be socialist (which, quite frankly, is laughable these days). I actually find it strange that the UK doesn't have a large left-wing party anymore (and I'm talking moderate left here)—the closest is the Lib Dems.

Tas—good to know that you're taking this in good humour. There are always times on forums where you wonder whether you're p——ing someone off, and I'm very glad that isn't the case here.

Upon re-reading my posts, I guess they may come off as alarmist—at least in part. The thing is, I believe in fighting for what you believe in, and not just thinking "it'll happen anyway". Although we currently have a shockingly authoritarian government, still pushing through draconian legislation on the back of the biggest excuse in the world (9/11), we are still a parliamentary democracy, and we do as people still have influence. If everyone faxed their MP (free to do online) more often, they'd at least hear voices, rather than think they know what everyone's thinking. For what it's worth, the Liberal Democrat HQ got back to me within two days. I'm still waiting for a response from my (Tory) MP, but he apparently has an 85% response rate within two weeks.

And if the Lib Dems get in, the ID cards will be buried. I'm not prepared to give the system time, on the simple basis that once it's there not even the Lib Dems or UKIP will have the guts to get rid of it, purely because it would cost them the following election ("how dare you scrap a system that cost £6bn?")

As an aside, no wonder Michael Howard is in favour: apart from being in favour when he tried to introduce them, if he gets into power he gets all the benefits of the card scheme, but none of the blame!

The thing is, his party is massively split, and could actually be torn apart by this (here's hoping). If he actually took the stance of being against the legislation, it would be defeated, and he'd probably be Prime Minister in a few years. Then again, did he threaten to over-rule him*? That shows his true colours!

* If you don't know what I'm on about, click here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3081602.stm

And lest we forget, Michael Howard would be all for Imigrant introduction (ya, that thing thats sapping us dry in welfare payments and housing, stipping blue cards and bus passes from OAP's), after all, he is one... an imigrant that is, not OAP.

So were agreed we dont want Scummy Labour anymore, We dont want Con, they are as they sound and Who the heck wants Liberal ? they just go wherever the wind takes em....

And the last BIG ALL USEFUL Database the government employed ? that was for the poll tax.... they were billing ppl who were dead...... and that monstrosity known as CSA (child support agency), is so far behind the fathers can do pretty much what they like anyway.

Do despite the fact that ID cards of some kind are on the way, for good or bad, who's going to run it given that none of the 3 main parties can be trusted ?

Blair and Bush have collectively killed more Iraqi's than Saddam ever did, Thatcher killed the unions and took the workers rights off them, and nobody liveral has had a chance to add their 2p yet... So, whats next... Which rights do they violate next, who would do it better, what are the new taxes coming our way, is it even worth going to work anymore ?

For my 2p ? I'd be out of this god-forsaken country while i still can, before it becoms another Russian Dictatorship - AND - towit, supposing some1 decides to liberate us, who does it once the USA owns the globe ? and how many innocents die for it....

... a wonderful spiral of events there, enjoy

> ya, that thing thats sapping us dry in welfare payments and
> housing, stipping blue cards and bus passes from OAP's
No, that's Government economic incompetence that's doing that, which includes underfunding local councils, damaging pension funds and borrowing to spend. The "immigrant problem" is a handy scapegoat, as always. And bearing in mind the skills shortage that results in the shocking educational standard of most UK graduates, we're going to need an imported skilled workforce: or even an unskilled one: indeed, the NHS would already be crippled without both.

Pah. It's guaranteed today that the ID cards will go through, faxing MPs or no. The Lib Dems just ought to run on the "anti ID card" platform, but a party to fond of centrism... you gotta distrust their motives just a little bit.

Chris

well, can i just point out that "Doncaster Council" are fecking ACE. We've never seen so much growth, ambition and development in Doncaster EVER!

A new Internastional Airport complete with a Thomsons AIR cheap fare operator opens next year, a new 32 million pound Community Stadium, A new Doncaster Interchange and it's even looking pretty AND i'm just touching the surface.

Our council is doing a grand job here.

and i'll point out that Doncaster has no overall majority, it's both Labour and Liberal

Matrix wrote:Who the heck wants Liberal?

Me, for one.

Chris Abbott wrote:The Lib Dems just ought to run on the "anti ID card" platform, but a party to fond of centrism... you gotta distrust their motives just a little bit.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that? You're far from the first person that I know who holds this view, and I've never really understood it. I vote for the party whose policies most fall in line with what I believe, and don't really care whether they're "left", "right" or "centre" (which, given that Labour is supposed to be centre-left, is pretty meaningless these days anyway).

Tas wrote:Our council is doing a grand job here.

Lucky you. Our council is populated by morons. Not content with painting yellow lines outside my house (and then subsequently fining me for parking there), despite me living in a cul-de-sac, they're not planning on wrecking the largest freshwater lake in Hampshire for the sake of a few flats. Nice.

By "Centrism", I don't mean the political centre, I mean the desire to expand government and meddle by moving power to the centre. Obviously Labour have it bad, but everything I've seen about the Lib Dems indicates that their desire to expand the remit of Government is every bit as strong, even if not quite so obviously draconian. And they're a bit enthusiastic about handing power over to the EU, too. The EU has proved itself corrupt, arrogant and incompetent, and they need to reform before I'll be happy with them being given any more powers over citizens they don't care the remotest bit about. It's deceitful political sleight of hand to associate being anti-EU with fascism, racism or any other ism. I'm against corrupt bureacracies being given powers they don't deserve.

Chris