Commodore Remix

I admire your spirit, Razmo... some quick points:

1) C64Audio.com WAS the scene for a fairly long time, at least in C64 remix terms.

2) There's already a royalty generator on C64Audio.com for people to get involved like that.

3) The path to more SID remixes in the mainstream isn't through C64Audio.com selling more tracks: C64Audio.com/Remix64/RKO is pretty much in that bubble forever. More SID remixes come from collaborating with remixers, producers and record labels outside the scene, and trying to get as much of our spirit into the result as possible. It's happening, it just isn't happening quickly. If it does happen, it won't happen with C64Audio.com's money. And, to paraphrase a quote "How do you make millionaire? Form an indie record label when you're a billionaire.

4) The true answer to this is not adverts from me (though Slaygon is helping by offering me the space on the Slay Radio page), it's word of mouth from SID fans. At the moment there is virtually none: which is massively unfair on the artists on C64Audio.com who have invested massively into complete labours of love. Does anyone here try and persuade their friends to try some of the extremely non-geeky tunes on c64Audio.com? Or is it just that the recent releases have been so stylised that no one gets excited about them any more? Have people stopped being excited about madfiddler? I dunno. Apart from the occasional gathering or live show, the scene seems to be lots of individual people in their individual bubbles who hide their love of C64 music from the outside world. As a result we've got a secret society. Wonderful. It's like being the official record label of the Illuminati.

Even if you're not buying stuff, Razzy ole' baby, are you persuading people to even visit C64Audio.com?

Oh, and I'm still banned on Google ads, because their specialist team are lazy bastards who haven't bothered looking at my case. Bah.

Your other ideas:

> It'll require a major effort on everyones part...
Damn straight. And it ain't gonna happen, let's face it.

What I think this scene has never got is that if C64Audio.com is important to the health of the scene, for lots of reasons, some obvious, lots non-obvious: but mostly because things get started, and because of the links to the original composers. Without events such as CD releases or live events, the scene will just undergo natural entropy.
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how much would it take in monthly fees from everyone here to keep C64audio.com running WITHOUT any profit, but enough to make commercial attacks outside the "scene bubble"?
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You'd need a lot more money than you can believe to even attempt it. The current strategy of trying to form alliances is not only the only one we have: it's also the only one which is financially sane.

> Stop targeting the scene as your customers, and make them the backbone of your dream.
A lot of people have helped with a lot of the stuff on C64Audio.com: artists, people doing video, graphics, people doing the album tracks... but the brutal truth is that this music is only special for people who remember the originals. The scene is, and always was, the audience for C64Audio.com. The bubble is pretty damn impermeable: and I should know, I've been trying to pop it for years.

There's one possible hope: more music on the site which is not C64 game related, but which is indisputably "of the scene". Like, for instance, a synth covers album for download done by people in the scene of their favourite tracks such as Neverending Story, Axel F, etc, using SID sounds as part of the deal. Being people for stuff they've heard of: hope they stay for the stuff they haven't. It's possible legally, since I have a licence that allows it to happen. Of course, it's only a synth album, and it might not attract anybody. But hey, it might work, and it might be fun.

Other stuff that would be really good are videos for C64 tracks (that would start on YouTube, of course), perhaps based around the forthcoming Remix64 Volume 3 tracks, or even commercial-sounding remixes based on C64 remixes such as Instant Remedy or any of the other albums.

I'm not holding my breath though: we've already extracted a huge amount out of the scene with the (quite frankly, marvellous) Remix64 Volume 3.

It would be nice if I felt like I had a team again to do this stuff: the problem was that the first team put a lot in and didn't get an awful lot out, partly thanks to the smallness of the scene, and partly thanks to their contribution being overshadowed, which was a shame. I know how hard this work is, which is why I feel uncomfortable about asking anyone to put themselves out again.

Chris

There's also hope for what the Tonka and Seth Sternberger albums can do, too.

Well... certainly this whole problem could become a serious threat to the scene... if it is like Chris says, and the original C64 artist get tired of this not bringing them anything in royalties and such, then we could be in deep shit in the future... That would mean the ragnarok of RKO, since it's Chris' goodwill that make this site running... If Chris "pack up and locks", then any of the artists could demand that RKO stop releasing their work for free.

And I don't think it's fair to let Chris carry the burden alone to keep the Hubbards and Galways at bay... it should be the whole scene that take responsibility in this feat. The problem is, that without any advantage doing so for those who participate, it will fail, which is why I'm talking about making the scene into a "bubble" where you pay to be part of the community, and in return you harvest the fruits of whatever is gained outside the scene bubble...

Now imagine that you suddenly woke up one day, and found that you have to subscribe to Remix64 to be part of the scene in here! ... and to download freely at RKO! ... I can tell you, that I'd subscribe emediately!!! if of course the subscribing fee was reasonable. And knowing that I'm part of the "big force" and that every bit of sweat I do to provide the scene with material will only make it all better, would certainly be another factor in my decision to join. As a sideeffect, this way of a joint effort will make people want to HELP each other! ... it's CRUCIAL to keep the good spirit of the scene alive... NO competition! ...

And would it not be nice... Chris... to have the whole scene share the burden? ... and see C64audio get along? and if all goes well, see some money come into the community? and maybe even see SID music prevail in a larger scale?

yes... maybe I'm optimistic, but surely you are too Chris, if you've put up with this for 10 years!

I'm only optimistic after I've drunk Pepsi Max. The rest of the time I'm just stubborn.

I'd love to see the free-for-all of RKO downloading tapered somewhat so that Remix64.com members only have access, but that's hugely at odds with the philosophy Jan runs the site by. And if it was a paid subscription then you'd have all sorts of arguments about splits of the subscription money.

It seems stupid to claim that it feels lonely out here when you have the support of so many of the webmasters and remixers here. But it does.

Chris

Well Chris... I can see the points you have written... but as things are right now, C64audio com is "closed country" for many sceners, the people who could potentialy be added power... Only you, and those remixers and original artists benefit from it... and you obviously need more money and enthusiasm from "us" to make it run... You want that enthusiasm to be purchasing from C64audio, but it just is not happening. Obviosly nobody will throw money into something they do not benefit from themselves, so if you want more money, you'll need more scene people behind you... I don't know if a community fee would do just that, but I don't really see any other options... you've tried the other solution for 10 years? that must tell you that something has to be done differently?

This is how many bussinesses work in real life... they rise by the funds of many people "spitting in the bin" on a realisation that they will benefit from it in the end... and when the scene people are not enough, then I'd use them as backbone instead and begin "grassing" in other places...

You don't even need to tell people that it's from C64 or geeky old 80's game music... just advert, and sell!!!

And yes Chris, I've been showing everyone I know the scene, believe me! but "ordinary" people don't give a shit about it being a goodwilled "keep C64 alive!" community... they just listen... and if they like... they download... from RKO... see the problem? ... they never stick their nose into the scene... they don't care about the scene, but they DO care about the music!

I played one of Sonic Wanderer's tracks lately to a woman I'm seeing... she fell flat on the floor in awe! she asked where to get it... and... yes... RKO... see the problem? she would have bought it straight off, if she was presented with the option, but the only option here was RKO!

Yes Chris!... but it's not just up to YOU to be goodwilled and farsighted! ... Jan will have to see the problem as well as everyone else who cares for the scene, and try to help here, if we want this scene to stay alive! ... in the end it's the composers of the SIDs that has the final word on this right?

and about the fee:

being a member should just give you are standard return-fee percentage of the "cake"... those who contribute with material should of course be rewearded with more... this is logical. the good thing about it is, that the more success of the community, the more everyone gets... and this way will motivate people to help each other with feedback, teaching etc... you just have to get away from the current "everyone for themselves" mentality that is so present in todays societies.

What material will be available outside the "bubble" could easily be found by using the voting system...

now DON'T ask me how to calculate such a system, I'm not a businessman and never will be... I'm a musician and graphical artist ...

Now, such a great change in the scene should of course not be forced upon the mebers here... maybe a thread explaining the future problems of it all, and suggesting people to give their opnions and idears as to how to best remedy it would be good? ... it's almost like with the melting poles today; we don't feel the effect yet, but it's just a matter of when, and maybe we need to talk about it? ... and by finding a collaborate solution it might be easier?

Chris: and yes! ... involving other stuff than just C64 related material is definitely worth a shot as well! ... especialy in the electronica department I think. Many musicians in here have projects on their own alongside C64 remixes, and I bet many are on YouTube, MySpace etc. without getting anything out of it... if I could make my own music and expose it in a community like this, I'd be seriously happy! and remove all and every account anywhere else!

I really like the idear of a good community like the Remix64 community acting as a collaborate "record label"

I just believe that in the end, if RKO is not something you pay for, it will crumble and wither away... and I thinnk many here in the scene would find that it's reasonable... you'll just have to "force" them to pay because believing in peoples goodwill is perhaps too naive these days... I don't think any scener would complain about a fee for downloading at RKO... If they cannot see the reasonable in this it's just too bad for them.

If you ask me, the priorities in all this are:

1. Save the scene and it's bubble... even if we never go mainstream or outside our comfortable nostagica-sphere, this should be #1 priority... to remedy this, I think that the most reasonable way to accomplish it will be to "bubble up" the scene, and let people pay asubscription fee that will allow entrance to Remix64 and RKO, and this fee should pay the royalties for both original artists and remixers

2. Expand the scene to include other music as well... this might attract "outsiders" and will enrich the community as well as spread the word of SID.

3. Establish a means of selling inside work, to the outside world on the internet, and also do some serious advertising in the right places.... "scene deciples" should spread the word wherever they go on the net.

4. Relax and enjoy

Remember Chris, that if it is successful to do something like this (#1) it is definitely due to your goodwill through those 10 years! ... you've mannaged to gather so many people, and make a Remix site with friends that so many of us hold dear to this day.... so much that IF a fee is implied upon us all, we will have been accustomed so badly to this scene, that we'll gladly pay! ... had it been a newly started forum it might never be possible to make anyone willing to pay at all.

Er, well, I'd add that actually I'm encouraging albums by more people in the scene, even original ones. One of the reasons I redesigned C64Audio.com was to open it up: but it didn't work because what I really need above all else is for someone else to take an active hand in running C64Audio.com: chasing people, soliciting work, having ideas and basically making things happen. I have loads of ideas, but I've absolutely no time or energy to put them into action.

The problem is the site doesn't generate enough money to pay anyone to do it: and equally, it's a fairly thankless task (in that there's very little glory or credit in it). And being a commercial entity, it's very hard to look someone in the eye that's working for you for free. I have always worked best as part of a team, and thanks to the magic of geography, day jobs, financial crises and near-death experiences I don't really have one any more. Or maybe I've just become reclusive...

I remain heavily pessimistic about the subscription idea: getting money off people for anything is like pulling teeth, even if it's small amounts. And for C64 music, even harder!

Chris

Chris Abbott wrote:Er, well, I'd add that actually I'm encouraging albums by more people in the scene, even original ones. One of the reasons I redesigned C64Audio.com was to open it up: but it didn't work because what I really need above all else is for someone else to take an active hand in running C64Audio.com: chasing people, soliciting work, having ideas and basically making things happen. I have loads of ideas, but I've absolutely no time or energy to put them into action.

The problem is the site doesn't generate enough money to pay anyone to do it: and equally, it's a fairly thankless task (in that there's very little glory or credit in it). And being a commercial entity, it's very hard to look someone in the eye that's working for you for free. I have always worked best as part of a team, and thanks to the magic of geography, day jobs, financial crises and near-death experiences I don't really have one any more. Or maybe I've just become reclusive...

I remain heavily pessimistic about the subscription idea: getting money off people for anything is like pulling teeth, even if it's small amounts. And for C64 music, even harder!

Chris

Have you tried creating a topic about the future of the scene and RKO? ... I think you may be a bit too pessimistic about the sceners with regards to this fee subject... afterall it's about to be, or not to bee as far as I understand your posts here correctly?

Also, I believe that many of the remixers here would welcome the idear of getting something for their hard work, without having to make special deal signups with you at C64audio com... I also think it'll be in the best of interrest for the original composers that you have signed contracts with to promote their music? ...

Another thing is, that if you do not sell much on C64audio... then those that team up with you might not get the exposure they really want, and they would have gotten much more feedback from releasing it for free at RKO... and to be honest, that thought HAVE crossed my mind several times after taling about releasing an album at C64audio. This prob. would also be taken care of if RKO was something you paid for.

Razmo, everything you say makes me more depressed about the way things are, to be honest.

It's uncomfortable, because it's a bad situation (for me, at least), but there are no bad guys here. Just people trying to do their best.

Chris

Chris: hmmm.... well that is the opposite outcome of what I intended really ... I'd surely like to see some more sceners jump in on this topic, since I feel you are the stubborn type who want's hard facts, black on white to believe ... but I'm not the one who have been through 10 years of this nightmare, so forgive me, if I sound too jolly optimistic ... but to be honest I've been through 15 years of unfulfilled dreams with my own music as well... so I DO know how it feels.... funny part is, that this scene is my "light at the end of the tunnel", so you can surely understand my concern

Just want to see this scene live on... would really HATE to have no other option but MySpace & YouTube.... yuck!