Commodore Remix

razmo wrote:

I think you're wrong about the fame though: there are (and always were) people making remixes of C64 tunes because the tune drove them to do it. It's a very powerful force.

Sorry, but I'm not buying that one ... I believe that musicians make music to get complimented on their work... it's a musicians major reason for making music (actually that is so with any artform), and in fact I believe it comes before the desire to make money... I simply do not believe that anyone make music only to listen to it for themselves... that makes releasing their work for others totaly unreasonable if that was the case... one way or the other, a musician wants to be heard.

You could argue that anonymous artist do not want that focus, but I believe that they want the "unknown attention" anyway.

If this was not the case by the way, then why bother with the whole voting system of RKO, not to mention those members that has complained about the system also.... someone MUST be interrested in the fame recieved here...

...and cover or not... it's still getting credit on someone elses work, be it cover or just mere samples.

You're arguing fuzzily: it only takes one person who's not remixing for the fame or the money to prove that it's not necessarily the case that they all do. There's also a motivation you've completely missed, and that's to put your work out as a service to others: such as early in C64 remix history when the motivation was often to preserve and bring back the music people had lost before Sidplay and HVSC became really widespread.

It's possible to want to publicise your work for reasons other than self-gratification. So not EVERY remixer is fame or money-hungry. That's my point.

As for your other point, I'm repeating myself, but people generally are very effective at judging how much credit a remixer is due: a person's quite entitled to take credit for their own artistic contribution to a joint effort. Taking a sample of someone else's work that you had zero to do with and putting it in something else is an entirely different matter.

Chris

Chris: well, I'll not argue something I cannot prove, but my belief is still, that every musician makes music for the reson of having other people listen to it, and reflect on it... and I'll stick to that belief until someone can genuinely prove to me, that this is not the case

or heY?... are we confusing fame with recognition here?... is it the "arrogant" kind of fame you are refering to? ... that of being looked up to etc.? ... if that is the case I'm with you... but I believe that every artist enjoy to gain recognition for his work....

I know I make music because I get enjoyment out of it, and a sense of expressing something, perhaps the creative side of me. I can say with some certainty that every musician is highly sensitive to the response on the work. Positive reactions gives positive energy and boosts the musical self esteem, making it more enjoyable (but may also introduce more pressure) to continue working and bettering yourself. That's my personal view anyway. Some people (I've known some in bands I've played in) seem to react by inflating their egos, others seem to keep their feet on the ground and keep a level head.

I've downloaded and enjoyed so many c64-remixes throughout the years that I finally decided to start giving back some using the abilities I have. In the end we're talking about remixes and covers, not original pieces (no matter how obscure the version is) so that should be accounted for when reading feedback on your work. If it hadn't been for Rob, Martin, Ben, David and the other composers we wouldn't be here...

Fame? Everyone in this scene looking for fame has come to the wrong place... there's not much fame to gain. My personal motivation to release remixes is to have some exposure of my work to people who would appreciate it. You are right when you say that remixers want reflection, of course they do, but I don't think this has to do anything with fame. (Like "Hey grandson, 50 years ago I was famous among a community of like 200 people."? )

Everything we do here is small-scale. I do my part out of idealism, and my belief that our little creative communtiy is something really special, and I know a lot of other people here who do it for the same reason. There are occasional outbursts of calls for fame, but as I said, it's the wrong place since there's no fame to find.

As for the initial topic of the thread: I also think that copyright laws are being driven to extremes right now. I also think that there should be more "fair use" kind of things. I'm noot going to elaborate on this here.

Why did we change our point of view? Isn't it obvious - we were kids then! I bought the occasional original, but buying one game was pretty much everything I could afford in half a year. Which kid wouldn't take the stuff for free if it was so readily available? When we got our c64 with copies of Summer Games, Pitstop II, Spy vs Spy etc., I was 11 years old. We had no awareness of it being illegal at all. We couldn't tell the meaning of "cracked by" from the meaning of "written by". This awareness grew as we grew up, and by the time we started earning money my brother and me erased most of our illegal game collection (some of it I still regret, among it were a couple of games I made with an illegal copy of Gary Kitchen's gamemaker).

Why do we judge Timbaland from such a high standard of morale? Obvious too - he is part of the very industry that issues the "piracy is a crime" campaigns. (Anecdote: We bought a children's story DVD recently, one that's peaceful and harmless, so if our little one wants to watch TV he doesn't have to watch the crap that goes as children's programe nowadays. Now everytime you put on the DVD you have to watch a one minute, unskippable clip that shows a mom and two kids singig happy birthday to their father outside a prison. "Mom when will daddy be released?" "We'll have to sing 4 more times." - "Piracy is theft and will be punished with up to 5 years of prison." - Then the kids stuff starts. Gets me fuming every time, and I was tempted to ripp the DVD and remove that bullshit and sell the original.) You get piled with such crap, every two months there are reports of copyright law getting stricter, you watch such intros in cinemas, and are pestered with copy protections when buying music. DRM and high prices prevent download portals from being attractive. Automatic bots surveil the P2P machinery, sending automatic official reprimands to thousands. Imprisoning a german mother for lending her bank account to her chinese friend who sells DVDs from China over eBay, only under the suspicion of piracy.

And now an popular representative of that very industry, backed by that very industry, says it's totally ok to ripp stuff the opposite way, making us buy their music which they have stolen from someone who meant it to be freely available.

Spending gazillions on campaigns that are meant to drive fear into us so we don't steal their intellectual property on the one hand, them smilingly defying their own rules, applying the ignorance of the powerful over the masses on the other hand. Gets my blood boiling for sure.[/b]

Well... it seems that my use of the word "FAME" has either been misinterpreted, or I've just used the wrong word... Now reading your (Lman) reply, I'm not here for fame either... but it sure is a nice feeling to see the orange smileys on the voting system at RKO, and to have people go "Your tune rocks!" when I log into the chat room.... it's this kind of response that make you want to do more... If I got no response at all on my music in here, I'm sure I'd quickly leave the place, and I'm sure a lot of others would too. so you could say, that I'm harvesting a good feel and acceptance in here for my work, though I'm doing it partially on the works of the original composers. The difference here is, that we share the credit with the original composers where Tibaland for example takes the whole credit by himself (which I do NOT support)

Now I'm being a bit uncertain if I've been understood correctly since so many of you feel tempted to write about the timbaland case in response to my posts... I most certainly do not endorse what he is doing... he's an arrogant bastard if you ask me... most of the things I've written where I take the "thiefs" part is when things are "stolen" without the intention of making money, or claiming the "stolen" stuff as your own... exactly as here on the remix scene... the problem is that if I do a remix of something else, say; take vocal recordings of Gollum from LOTR, and place it on my web site with references, I might very well be asked to put it away... THAT I find to be ridiculous as I would not harm anything by doing it...

Now I understand the thing you say about many being kids back then... but honestly... I've been in the scene up and until I was over 18 years of age, and A LOT of other people has too... I remember clearly the parties that I attended and the ones KEFRENS held.... one big swapping scene by large teenagers that CLEARLY knew that what they did was wrong... I remember clearly the hatred for copyright companies doing ratiaz on such parties from time to time... I cannot see that age should be the only reson for this radical change in moral up to the present day... also if it was excuseable to do piracy that you did not have the money to buy, then why is it not acceptable for someone who has not got the money to buy for example Waves megaexpensive Diamond Bundle, to use the pirated version today?... I don't see the difference really.

What I was actually initially trying to provoke out in the open with my topic here was if my speculations on some peoples change was in fact that they as adults has gotten positions in business with programing, graphics and music and sound design, and as such has changed their view on things because they realised that it is now themselves being in a position where piracy is hurting them... and even though no one will admit to it, I believe that I'm right.... and what should be so mysterious about it? ... when it hurts you take measures to ease the pain... I just personaly find it to be double morality when those kind of people then judge and look down on those who do today what they themselves did in the past...

anyone get what I'm trying to say?

*shrug*

As you get older, you do see things differently. LMan said as much: we were kids. You're a kid up until you're about 32

I'm sure being involved in having to earn a living from creativity gives you a different respect for intellectual property.

Chris

Chris: OK... so what you are saying is, that as long as you are below 32years of age, it's "acceptable" to do piracy becuase you "cannot help it"? ... and then you should stop, because else you are a thief!? ... hmm...

But you just admited to what I tried to find out; some change DO happen because you realise that it hurt yourself when you get into the business... and that is of course understandable...

I'd just surely feel funny, if I was sued by someone I knew did the self same thing before he/she got involved in the business... that was the thing I tried to picture with Whitakker earlier... but other C64 somposers did this too... did ilegal covers or derrivatives and today sue other musicians for doing the same to them... it's double morallity in my eyes...

Hope this topic is not creating bad moods, because that is not the intention... I assume we can debate this as civilized people... right?

Another thing that was my goal of this thread was to find out how many actually DO use pirated software... I've visited many music forums on the net, and each and every one of them seem to endorse anti-piracy without a doubt... it just makes me wonder because the piracy underground of music software is huge... where are all these people in public music forums? ... I believe they are there, but keep low profile, and maybe even under the pretending of being legit...

I was simply trying to get under the skin of a taboo I feel is present in many forums... from time to time someone makes a "mistake" and reveals that he/she use piracy in one way or the other.... but the usual response is a huge "ROAR!" from the rest of the community, and silence sets in... it's like those uncasual visitors are "tamed" pretty quickly...

weird don't you think?

The "32" thing was a bit of a joke, actually: some people never grow up.

But anyway: So this whole thread is actually aimed at me or the Composers I represent?

You deal with the situations you're given. If someone is naughty, you try to talk to them informally, to come to an arrangement. If they persist in behaving like arrogant dickheads, then you take legal action. It's as simple as that. No one using C64 music has ever had legal action or even threats against them unless they've absolutely deserved it by being dishonest, shifty or otherwise behaved like a complete shit.

I don't understand why you're trying to picture yourself or other C64 fans being hassled legally. It's just not going to happen (well, not from me, anyway), so the entire argument is pointless. The only people who get sued around here are the people who have stolen C64 samples for use in commercial tracks: and then only if they behave like dickheads when they're found out. The mental image you have is completely out of sync with reality.

Chris

razmo wrote:Another thing that was my goal of this thread was to find out how many actually DO use pirated software... I've visited many music forums on the net, and each and every one of them seem to endorse anti-piracy without a doubt... it just makes me wonder because the piracy underground of music software is huge... where are all these people in public music forums? ... I believe they are there, but keep low profile, and maybe even under the pretending of being legit...

I was simply trying to get under the skin of a taboo I feel is present in many forums... from time to time someone makes a "mistake" and reveals that he/she use piracy in one way or the other.... but the usual response is a huge "ROAR!" from the rest of the community, and silence sets in... it's like those uncasual visitors are "tamed" pretty quickly...

weird don't you think?

I'm not sure a thread designed to try and prove that most of an entire community is hypocritical is entirely helpful or productive. Why not just assume that everyone has used pirated software at some point, but that everyone's too ashamed to admit it? I really don't know what you're trying to accomplish here, since any evidence that might point to things you don't believe is dismissed out of hand anyway. What good is gained from getting people publicly to admit they've pirated stuff?

Chris

Chris: no... it's not aimed at you or anyone in here... not at all ... we all grow up and change our beliefs... and I don't believe that just because you were "naughty" as a child, that you should grow up to keep being that... in reality I'd suggest the opposite

I just wondered what let to such a change in moral from the scene days and up to now, and tried to see if I could find the current state of piracy somehow... but I guess it's not really measureable anyway...

Actually I was reluctant to bring the topic up, because I feared it might be misinterpreted (my intentions)... that was why I initialy wanted NOT to debate right vs. wrong.... but you kept bringing that aspect up, so I took the chance....

but to sumarize: no... I'm not trying to get at anyone in here... there is no point, I love the place and are part of the community and was myself part of the "dark side" back in the scene days

I just like looking at things from a "birds view" from time to time...
sorry if this led to misunderstandings.

Chris: I've not tried to make anyone admit to using pirated software... if that has been the way it was read, it's not the intend. I simply "flew up" and looked at the situation and hoped others would join me "up there" and debate how things REALLY are....

...I don't know... maybe it's just me who is not ashamed of admitting that I used pirated software... and yes... still are, though not in the extend I used to... in fact I use very very little and try to buy what I can afford... but reading public forums make me feel as if I should be very ashamed of myself.... guess I just wanted to see If I'm the only "bad guy"

But I guess you're right... people do not want to admit even if they do... and I understand it well... this is obviosly how taboos work

It's not just taboo: everything you write in a public forum can come back to haunt you some day.

Chris

But I agree with you, that this thread is not really very productive or creative in any way as I hoped it would have been... so I suggest we just end it right here. You may erase it if you feel like it as nothing good will come of it anyway.

Music and movies . . yes.. as a preview .. if I like .. I buy ..

Software .. no .. I only use Open and Free software ..

That's about it