Sparse Vs The Full Sound

[Razmo]

XO: naah, you did not hit a nerve everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I'm not that much into the technical part of Physical modelling actually... I just use it. I've heard not so many hardware versions simply because there is not that many options... I only know of two producers of this technology and that's KORG and YAMAHA... I've got both, and to tell you the truth, Yamaha has the definitive edge on this one... the only problem being that Yamaha's is monophonic, and KORGS is polyphonic... so had to have both ...

I don't know much about software versions of physical modelling... I know that Tassman should do the trick, and a few others too... one I'd like to see in hardware is the NuSoft HarpTime... really really beautiful reproduction of a harp!

Now to argue physical modelling vs. real thing I will not because it's no match for the real thing... period... but it suffice in autencity fro me... the most cool thing about physical modelling is it's expressiveness that is truly unmatched in other forms of synthesis... I like the idear of making other models than real instruments using the technology, and just the sheer thought of "blowing a violin" or "Bowing a flute" is intriguing to me

[xo]

True. I suspected Yamaha would be at the forefront, having experienced their, compared to the competition, superior MIDI softsynth.

Is there any place where one can get samples (they don't have to be complex) of these physically modelled instruments or effects?

[Razmo]

XO: ... well here is Yamaha VL70m:

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV1.mp3

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/AudioDemos/VL70mV2.mp3

but again; much of the secret lies in the expression and thus, you'd need a wind controller to make those examples this realistic... use a "simple" keybed and you will emidiately sound much more static.

[Razmo]

But actually the Nord Modular G2 also have physical modelling incorporated... it has string oscillators, and some of the demo's sound rather ok:

http://www.clavia.se/G2/G2strings.mp3

http://www.clavia.se/G2/G2Guitar.mp3

http://www.clavia.se/G2/G2_teaser.mp3

the last one begins a bit into the demo.... rather impressive.

[xo]

That acoustic guitar sounds promising! The common denominator for these samples is a superficial reproduction with simple sounding harmonics.

[Razmo]

XO: yeah... it's still simple, but still it's pretty convincing to me... at least good enough to fool me who is not a great professor in accoustic sound ... and compared to the very limited expression found in sample libraries I'd choose physical modelling of this kind to any library... but still, it's quite hard to do a whole symphonic orchestra with this as I've been discussing in another topic... You'd have to have an enormous number of VL70m's to do it... just imagine one for every violin player...

But as solo instruments in combination with other sounds like in for example New Age, these instruments can sound really really realistic... especially when other sounds are played simultaneously many of the tiny "imperfections" is masked out totaly.

In fact, I used a VL70m synth for the flute part in my older "Action Biker" remix here at the scene ... played it on the keyboard, but triggered the flute sound using a Yamaha BC3 breath controller.

[Maindrian]

Kind of found something I did yonks ago that perfectly illustrates the kind of sound I like.

http://storm.elxx.net/2nafish/Look%20At ... on%202.mp3

Not exactly an epic, more filler material, but I think you get the idea. Also not the greatest extremes I've gone towards dirtying up sound, but alas, the only one I could really find.

[Razmo]

Maindrian: Yes.. that is nice and dirty ... If you want to hear something similar dirty, then try to find some of Jarre's earliest work, pre Oxygene... now that's dirty analog as well... try "Deserted Palace" if you can find it... just don't expect Jarre as you know him

P.S. funny... we both hit 216 posts with these two last posts

[Romeo Knight]

That acoustic guitar sounds promising! The common denominator for these samples is a superficial reproduction with simple sounding harmonics.

Yeah, it might sound promising but not convincing at all to me.
At higher registers it doesn't even sound like a guitar, more like some kind of harp thing or similar stuff. Lots of things are still neglected, it's too perfect in tune (a real guitar cannot be in tune at all frets, that's physically impossible), too clean (that's because the instrument might be modeled but not the fingers of the guitarist). But the most important thing is the phrasing, the type of playing. As a breath controller for a flute you'd need a MIDI guitar controller for note input, I think.
The VL70 technology is really outdated btw (1996).
Reaktor 5 contains some really powerful physical modeling algorithms. The Steampipe 2 synth for example is great for any mallet type instrument.
And the sitar in my Gerry the Germ remix is modeled with Sehktar 1.2, made from Reaktors PM algorithms. However, it's not perfect but works well. I think.

[xo]

Perhaps you could post some links to samples, Romeo?

[Razmo]

Romeo Knight: I'll say it again: JUST LISTEN!

I'm a synthesizer guy, and not a guitar guy... never have been, and never will be, so my standard for when it's good enough for me is probably a lot lower than yours. Besides that, I like sounds that sound organic and alive alongside synthesizer sounds... so if a "guitar" in my music does not sound authentic, then it's very well likely it's not supposed to ... I've heard true guitar sounds (or any other accoustic instrument for that matter) for so many years now, that I find them a bit boring... I want something new... I just love music that sound diferent from the rest.

So for me, even if the physical modeling is not accurate enough to fool you, it has enough expression possibilities to satisfy my needs... even Yamaha's gear, though outdated as you say...

sometimes I wonder why people are so crittical with emulated instruments... if you want the real sound, why don't you just use the real instruments? ... I for an example cannot get to grips with the SID emulation of todays emulators (filter sound inferior).. so I am building a MIDI Box SID synth with the real thing to get what I want ... no, I'd like to use physical modelling for other stuff like combining the different laws of physics modules to create new otherworldly sounds with instead, and I don't need anything more accurate than teh Yamaha VL synthesis

[Chris Abbott]

Interestingly, the VL70m and Wind Controller showed up at BIT Live Brighton, played by Ben Daglish on "Thanatos".

Chris

[Razmo]

Chris: yeah! and I could not be there to witness ... I've had the VL70m once... in hardware there just is no better physical modelling technology if you ask me... I'd love to have a wind controller for my Yamaha EX5R, but unfortunately I can only connect a BC3 breath controller to it... it's not the same as with a fullblown WX controller.

but then... I'd have to learn to play the flute to use it anyways ... fro now, my keys are the "holes", and the BC3 my mouthpiece

and as a final say: The VL synthesis no matter how old still is king in expression in the hardware department... period!

[Razmo]

Just thought: As it has always been, there are as many opinions on music, and music creation as there are musicicians and listeners... it's not really debateable as it's all a matter of taste in the end... what is good for one, is crap for another and so on...

Do your stuff so it satisfie yourself... someone will think the same of it, and others will not... fact

[xo]

The point of physical modelling, is to some extent, to mimic the real world instruments, so it's only natural you judge them on that ability.

Nothing beats the real instruments and you can manipulate and compress them to get the effect you want, razmo.