Commodore Remix

An amazing CD that puts Marcel on the map big-time makes its pre-debut, and no one says anything...

Is everybody really that jaded? Or was everybody just waiting for the weekend to download the clips? Or can't people actually get past the
crappy Javascript cart?

Chris

One word... STUNED

Awesome tracks, i can really feel the vangelis, Jarre touch in those babies

Well. Well. Well.
Actually I am sorry to start like this here. So at first, hello everybody. Just another guy from Germany enters the board.

Anyways. Let me say I strongly respect the work from Marcel, and I appreciate his efforts for the scene. However, I am sorry to say so but the short clips disappointed me. Maybe it is the weak sound, or the fact I heard some of the tunes a thousand times on different CDs already, that makes me feeling just empty.

In my humble opinion the scene reached a dangerous point. Do not worry, I am not speaking about the "scene is dead" topic again, I just say that so many releases from you Chris were simply disappointing to me, that I hardly can say now if I will buy any of these products anymore. The "for free" remixes reached a great quality already, so I only want to spend my money for albums I am 100% convinced about. Remix 64 surprised me, so I am looking forward to the 2nd volume for sure. Same goes for BiT 4, although it is more a kind of "giving it a last chance" after the albums got worser and uninspired with every part. Do not take it personally, Chris. It is my opinion, my free speech here.

But god, after seeing the cover for Sidologie I was so shocked and disappointed, that I thought the end is near... yes, it does not say much about the music itself, but it says something about the idea behind. It just looks so cheap.

Marcel, you deserve something better. Any chance to stop the manufacturing and give it some extra work?

My 2 cents here... discuss.
Jens

Well, I just had a listen and, well, it sounds okay to me, but that's about it. There's certainly nothing wrong with the production, or, by the sounds of it, the actual conversions themselves; I reckon the concept itself just doesn't sit right with me.

I think, to be fair, whether you like this CD or not will depend on just how much you like Jarre, and whether you're after C64 tracks welded to his style. For my money, I'd rather hear more innovative takes on C64 tracks, and these seem to be, in many cases, Jarre's originals with a different melody. I guess one might argue that this is the entire point of the CD, but it's not really enough for me. In some ways, it's amusing, but I already have the Jarre originals upstairs, and in the vast majority of cases, they sound better. Some of these mixes just sound... wrong (Bombo, for instance) although both the Rambo tracks and Lightforce seem to work pretty well.

I should probably point out that I do like a fair chunk of Donne's stuff, and maybe my opinion will be more positive when I hear the CD... We'll see...

well, as you may know Marcel and myself are both big Vangelis-Heads

I just had a short tune-in with "COBRA" and i must confess it is awesome !!!
I think it's much better than my COBRA-version, even when i just heard a short clip out of it!
2 THUMBS UP for this, MARCEL !!!!

cheers
TOM:::..

(Jens)
> In my humble opinion the scene reached a dangerous point.
If it was only your personal opinion, then you wouldn't be worried: you're worried because you think lots of other people agree with your assessment: I'm not sure they do. In my position I get exposed to the
opinions of a hell of a lot of people, conflicting and contradictory: but
some sense comes out of it, from whence we try to build a roadmap of
how to progress.

First off, CDs don't get just arbitrarily thrown together by me: they get discussed, agonised over, beta-tested to near infinity, etc. Opinion is also canvassed. Given that, it's difficult ever to believe that the BIT series got worse over time, or, for instance, that Karma is worse than BIT 1... it just goes contrary to the expressed opinions of the majority, and even common sense.

If you believe BIT 1 was the pinnacle of the series, where would you have gone from there? How would you have made BIT 1 better? What would BIT 2 have been? I really am interested to find out what direction you would have taken the series. And, frankly, if you thought BIT 3 was disappointing, I'd give up on BIT 4 now. And if you hated Karma (and its ambient bits), then I don't think I'll produce a CD ever again which you'll actually like.

As for the cover, it's a parody of Equinoxe. It was originally a more subtle
variation on that cover, but had to be changed to out and out parody for copyright reasons. I love it, personally, because I like the humour: and BTW it's not my cover, it's a friend of Marcel's, Geoff Vane. The CD goes off for pressing on Monday....

As for the "weak sound"... well, I don't know what to say, other than "I don't agree (strongly)". And that's not me talking from a "trying to sell the CD" standpoint (which I never take anyway: I always say what I believe), that's me talking as a fan of the music. It's just brilliant Vangelis and Jarre.

Still, it's your opinion, as you say. It would have been more valuable a couple of years ago, of course, when you would have had a chance
to influence CD releases more.

It's also your own choice to withhold your financial support from the CD scene, but that kind of misses some of the point about why we're doing this. If lots of people believe as you do, they will simply kill C64Audio.com and everything that goes with it. It's not just about whether a CD 100% satisfies you: it's about keeping this unexpected revival running. If you want to get more involved, then give constructive criticism (and by that I mean solid, concrete points) about where things have gone wrong, and ideas as to how you would solve it. If you're going to act like a mercenary consumer, then you're being more materialistic than we are! We have been trying to put out new and different things each time: notice there are NO repeats in the C64Audio.com catalogue. We're trying to push the art forward _and_ make C64 music more accessible to other audiences. I guess my definition of forward is "into the mainstream". Which of course some would regard as a backward step. Presumably for these people the ultimate C64 remix is a SID put through a bitmangler, reversed and shredded, then superimposed onto someone clanging saucepans.

(Craig)
Oddly, as a Jarrehead, these remixes seemed perfectly natural to me when I heard them: indeed, there was one remix that was produced by Marcel which was a Phantoms of the Asteroids remix done in Magnetic Fields stylee, which was indeed dropped from the album because it wasn't strongly distinctive enough from the original, and indeed just sounded "wrong", since the ear was expecting the original melody.
The others seemed great: but you're right in that innovation was not the point here.

The quest for innovation in C64 remixing is a bit of a dry well, I think.
There's a tendency for covers to become more stylised and genre-bound,
which militates against innovation, and the innovation upsets as many
as it pleases. It's like originality in gaming: a nice idea, but you get punished for it in the real world, hence Fifa 2003. It's hard to think where any innovation could come from. We've had orchestral/symphonic remixes, we've had ethnic remixes, dance remixes, happy hardcore, SID + Drums, New Age, general synthy, SID2MIDI + drums, structures messed about into new songs, parodies of existing songs... where are
the new frontiers? Everything's been done. Makes you wonder if Seth
had a point hardly remixing the SIDs at all, because in a way they sound
the most out-there of the lot. Even Remix64 vol 2 is essentially a film soundtrack album, with all the stylistic choices that involves.

Having said all that, FTCs stuff is genuinely innovative, especially the stuff you haven't heard yet, because they're genuinely new takes on the tunes involved.

But, I think innovation in music is pretty much over except for perhaps the novelty items. I think the next stage of innovation is video for the audio, which is just starting to be explored, and radio presentation of personalities and tracks in an entertaining way. That's why a C64-film-festival is planned for next year, kind of an art-house thing combined with a BIT Live (if we survive that long).

But then, if you spend your life questing for novelty, then you're going to have a long frustrating journey. Most people know what they like, and keep consuming it. It makes them happy. They're the people we have to do it for, especially as musicians like yourself have the ability to produce your ideal tracks yourself. If you can come up with an innovative C64-remix album, I'd be delighted to support it. I'm still a fan of "single artist" CDs, because it enables real self-expression by an artist in terms of presentation of the concept (artwork, track order, and in the case of at least three CDs in the C64Audio.com label, continuous sound).

Chris

> Even Remix64 vol 2 is essentially a film soundtrack album,
> with all the stylistic choices that involves.
Of course, R64 volume 2 involves a lot of original material and loose
interpretation of the SIDs, but I'm sure that this innovation is too subtle
for most... as would be the idea of using SID subtunes as Leitmotif in BIT 4.

> notice there are NO repeats in the C64Audio.com catalogue.
Of course I mean repeats of CD styles, not actual SIDs. The classics
are classics for a reason, in that they support many more
variations and takes on the idea. And they're more inspiring generally.

Chris

Another point: it's easy to forget how impressed we all were with O2s original Jarre take on Zoids, which is still in the RKO top ten. Sidologie is more of the same, only better. In a way, that's MORE innovative than a dance remix of a SID...

Plus Knucklebusters also doesn't correspond to a particular track,
and that's an innovative treatment of a difficult SID.

Chris

I just downloaded the clips (today i couldn't, bandwidth problems), and i'm listening to them while writing.

I don't understand the "weak sounds" issue.
The tracks are well mixed, the sounds are right.
Jarre didn't sounded "better" with his early works, in fact, just fire up Oxygene CD and hear for yourself.

I don't like Bombo, but i never liked the original.
I hate Marcel to have done Knucklebuster the way i was just going to make it, forcing me to drastically re-plan everything [no, marcel, i'm just joking ]

It may be true that a true Jarre fan doesn't need other music in Jarre style.

I don't agree.

The best Jarre is the Jarre of Oxygene, Equinoxe, Magnetic Field, and, partially, of Zoolook. In my humble opionin, saving something from rendez-vous, nearly every other Jarre work could remain unnoticed without losing anything.

Those works aren't tracks made by idiots.
Those are works done by people deeply in love with both the 1st Jarre and our beloved SID artists.
They tried to merge the 2 things togheter. and from what I hear it seems that their work has been a successful one, well worth the money to buy the cd.

Cheers.

Chris Abbott wrote:Another point: it's easy to forget how impressed we all were with O2s original Jarre take on Zoids, which is still in the RKO top ten. Sidologie is more of the same, only better.

Just the usual people way of thinking: Zoids is free, why should I *pay* for something similar that is *not* free?

I only would like to let know some people that *instruments* (may they be software or hardware) are expensive.
And to make something like Zoids sound the way it sounds, o2 spent a lot of bucks.

In a way, that's MORE innovative than a dance remix of a SID...

My dance remixes are always innovative! (well, nearly ).

Plus Knucklebusters also doesn't correspond to a particular track,
and that's an innovative treatment of a difficult SID.

Ahhh, Marcel, how much i hate you

cheers.

Chris:

If it was only your personal opinion, then you wouldn't be worried: you're worried because you think lots of other people agree with your assessment: I'm not sure they do. In my position I get exposed to the
opinions of a hell of a lot of people, conflicting and contradictory: but
some sense comes out of it, from whence we try to build a roadmap of
how to progress.

Jens:

I am worried because the market is flooded with C64 products at the moment, Chris. And in my opinion this is not for the good of it, because the latest CDs are poor, in majority. This is a question of taste, I agree. But between us, Chris-I doubt the CD sales are going fine for you, or at least as fine as they did with your first releases. Consumers will notice the lack of quality, and they will get bored by it. What I am trying to express is that-so again, this is me-you are destroying the place for albums like Remix 64 that still have the spirit you had with BiT 1, for what I respect you. Nowadays, as the sad truth, this changed.

Chris:

First off, CDs don't get just arbitrarily thrown together by me: they get discussed, agonised over, beta-tested to near infinity, etc. Opinion is also canvassed. Given that, it's difficult ever to believe that the BIT series got worse over time, or, for instance, that Karma is worse than BIT 1... it just goes contrary to the expressed opinions of the majority, and even common sense.

Jens:

Good point, so I would think about the question if it might be the wrong testers, simply because you did not change them over the years? Might it be possible you are living in your own C64 universe, unable to realize what people really want to hear?

Chris:

If you believe BIT 1 was the pinnacle of the series, where would you have gone from there? How would you have made BIT 1 better? What would BIT 2 have been? I really am interested to find out what direction you would have taken the series.

Jens:

From BiT 1 to BiT 2 is was the right direction, nothing wrong about it.
It lacked a bit in professionalism as all C64 products do, but again, this does not matter if I can see a soul and a heart in the music.

Chris:

And, frankly, if you thought BIT 3 was disappointing, I'd give up on BIT 4 now. And if you hated Karma (and its ambient bits), then I don't think I'll produce a CD ever again which you'll actually like.

Jens:

What can I say, it is a pity. In my opinion it started to go into the wrong direction with BiT 3 at first, with the try to achieve an orchestral sound. It was nice with one or two pieces, but all of them? Following a story? Hello? What kind of idea was that? The tracks perfectly work in their old context, I loved to read about the backround of the tunes, the comments from the composers and so on. But a very weak story that told nothing and just was there for being there... ? Chris, you can do better than this.

Chris:

As for the cover, it's a parody of Equinoxe. It was originally a more subtle
variation on that cover, but had to be changed to out and out parody for copyright reasons. I love it, personally, because I like the humour: and BTW it's not my cover, it's a friend of Marcel's, Geoff Vane. The CD goes off for pressing on Monday....

Jens:

In the end I do not care who did it. But as long as it is released via C64Audio.com you are responsible for the production, as a matter of a fact. And as it looks for me, it just will get the same response from the people as every newer product from you: the scene will buy it (the people who buy it every time), the rest will laugh about it. So tell me, do you have the intention to expand your audience, yes or no? Because with this lack of quality, starting with the cover artwork, you won't manage that in ages.

Chris:

As for the "weak sound"... well, I don't know what to say, other than "I don't agree (strongly)". And that's not me talking from a "trying to sell the CD" standpoint (which I never take anyway: I always say what I believe), that's me talking as a fan of the music. It's just brilliant Vangelis and Jarre.

Jens:

Fine, so I will buy a CD from Vangelis and Jarre. Not a copy of it.
Don't get me wrong, it is a nice idea for a few tracks, or the way Remix 64 did it... but not all the time within these limitations.

Chris:

Still, it's your opinion, as you say. It would have been more valuable a couple of years ago, of course, when you would have had a chance
to influence CD releases more.


Jens:

So when did you ask the people out there what they want? I just might have missed that, sorry.

Chris:

It's also your own choice to withhold your financial support from the CD scene, but that kind of misses some of the point about why we're doing this. If lots of people believe as you do, they will simply kill C64Audio.com and everything that goes with it. It's not just about whether a CD 100% satisfies you: it's about keeping this unexpected revival running.

Jens:

Sorry, Chris, but this is nonsense. Even your hardcore-diehard scene won't buy crap CDs, just because it is for the good of the scene. They will download similar remixes for free. And this is the good right of everybody, as long as you cannot come up with something that is worth my money.

Chris:

We're trying to push the art forward _and_ make C64 music more accessible to other audiences. I guess my definition of forward is "into the mainstream". Which of course some would regard as a backward step.

Jens:

Yes, but this way you never will reach your goal, Chris. Even the mainstream market is not about funny (?!) looking covers that just scream "CHHHEAAAAAP" deep into your face.

^ Jens

> My dance remixes are always innovative! (well, nearly ).

Out of curiosity, you are the man behind that Apidya remix, right?

> Sorry, Chris, but this is nonsense.
> Even your hardcore-diehard scene won't buy crap CDs,
> just because it is for the good of the scene.

No, you're talking nonsense, because they aren't crap CDs. None of them.

When you say "the rest will laugh about it", you betray the fact that
you are convinced that you speak for the majority. Is it true that
everyone who doesn't buy the CDs does so because they hate it? I don't
really think so.

Is everyone laughing about the CDs? Which ones are they laughing about?
How exactly are these CDs crap or lacking in quality?

BIT 3 story: the story was an attempt to justify the orchestration involved in the pieces. Why make this change or that change in an orchestral piece? It has to be in response to something. In addition, pieces like WAR were so far from the SID that we thought it might help if people were given some imagination cues to help enhance their enjoyment of the piece. There's another reason we did it: because we wanted to, and we enjoyed it, and it had never been done before. In general people welcomed it: and not only my immediate clique, but people who wouldn't touch BIT 1 with a bargepole. Even people who didn't like C64 music liked BIT 3, and especially the storyline which helped make sense of the album.

Sidologie cover: I don't impose myself on the artists, because it's their CD, not mine. I suggest ideas, I point out problems, but I don't tell them how to do their job. That would ruin their artistic integrity, and also remove a lot of the enjoyment from the project: how much fun is it to produce a CD where someone else is telling you what to do all the time?

As for the market being flooded: yes, there are more CDs than ever before. And yes, each CD by itself becomes less of an essential purchase, as more of people's favourite tracks get covered.

But this wasn't me planning the CD releases: this was CDs turning up as someone got inspired. What was I going to do? Turn down great (NOT CRAP!) CDs because it didn't fit my release schedule? It seems ironic that you're telling me to be MORE mercenary: every single CD released had a compelling reason for release, and justifies its existence admirably. If quantity damages the scene, then perhaps someone ought to restrict uploads to RKO as well?

The law of diminishing returns has indeed kicked in. Individual CDs sell less than they used to. This isn't an indication of quality, it's just an indication of an increased number of products chasing the same average spend, and of the fact that BIT 1 was enough for many people. They got
their fix, then felt no need to come back. They'd had their favourite tunes.

The way to improve this is to increase the size of the market, which is what CDs such as Sidologie, Instant Remedy, Galway Remixed and Crystal Dreamscapes (and even Remix64) are trying to do. Lack of success so far has less to do with product quality than my own lack of
time and energy to fully promote the CDs and to do the promotional
work needed. Steps have recently been taken in this direction.

Feedback: many people have sent me many emails, and I have been on many forums. Some of those people who have been most vocal have
subsequently turned into beta-testers precisely because they bought
a different viewpoint to mine. They influenced the CD because they
were outspoken, but crucially unlike you, they were outspoken in a
constructive way: they stated what they didn't like, why they didn't like it,
and suggested alternatives or other ideas. CraigG will back me up
on this, though he wasn't involved in the Sidologie beta-testing, because
Marcel had his own testers. Those people who took an _active_ role were rewarded, even if they said things that I didn't like: in fact, especially if they said things I didn't like, if they expressed them in the right way.

The core of your argument seems to be: "stop releasing crap CDs because they're taking the market away from good CDs". The problem is (a) the CDs you don't like aren't crap, and (b) CD preference varies wildly from one person to the next. So who can decide what should be released? All we can look at is whether the CD is worthwhile artistically
(and they are, no matter what you protest), and will make the world
a happier place by existing, by making some people happier.

I'll tell you something now: make the most of this while it's still going on. Because it won't last for ever. 10 to 20 years from now, when the CDs are unavailable and this scene is a pleasant memory, you'll wish that you'd been more positive about it, and enjoyed it to the full while you had the chance rather than carping on about it. You might even find that you enjoy the CDs more when you know there will never be any ever again. We've a limited period of time to do this stuff, and we need to make it as productive as possible. Those people who take it for granted are in fact hastening its demise. It's not a new story. Some great games for the C64 at the end of its life were killed because of apathy from people who should have supported it, and people who put themselves on the line to try and preserve that met shortsighted cynicism and criticism.

Chris

I'm not going to go talking about other CD's, but since remix64 was mentioned, i'll try and make a little sense of the remix64 -> remix64 v2 thing....

Remix64 has rarely had bad feedback, but it wasn't the massive success it possibly could have been. Why? many reasons i suppose, many i will never know and can only guess at. Jens is right about the spirit of the team for volume 1, and the same spirit exits in volume 2. However if your expecting more of the same from volume 2 then your gonna be mightly disapointed. If you expecting more than just a remix and on an improved quality base then this will please.

let me speak a little about volume2. Chris mentioned that volume 2 is essentially a sound track CD. In many respects Chris is right, but there are welcome deviances from that. Gianluca's work for example is Rock with real drums and guitar used. But about 50% of the tracks are indeed Soundtrack.

The concept of remix64 v2 does take some gambles in regarding we have changed weaker areas of the sid and introduced more suitable new parts. The reason for this is that we wanted to improve the overall feel of the tune and make it more consumable for the everyday music lover, while also not leaving out the interests of the c64 scene either. There's a nice blend here that is probably more "ART" than cover. One thing is certain the Spirit has been carried over to volume 2 as it was with volume 1, maybe even more so.

At first, thanks for getting back to me with detailed info.

Chris:

No, you're talking nonsense, because they aren't crap CDs. None of them.

Jens:

Sure, this is a point we do not have to argue about. It is just a matter of different opinions here.

Chris:

When you say "the rest will laugh about it", you betray the fact that
you are convinced that you speak for the majority. Is it true that
everyone who doesn't buy the CDs does so because they hate it? I don't
really think so.

Jens:

See, we have to consider one point here: you are talking about making these CDs available (and enjoyable) for a wider audience. In my opinion, it is a very good sign that you are on the wrong road just simply by the fact that no real label is interested in your albums. Or am I wrong here? A CD like "Instant Remedy" surely would get a real distributor, not because it is brilliant, but because it has an appeal to the mainstream purchaser.

Chris:

Is everyone laughing about the CDs? Which ones are they laughing about?
How exactly are these CDs crap or lacking in quality?

Jens:

Phew, lot of questions. Some guy once told me: the only truth are the sales. This might be different here, but a CD like "Dreamscapes" cannot be classified as a real effort to make good music? For me, every CD after "BiT 3" (that had a kind of professionalism, but was way too cold) was very amateurish, and I asked myself if there is a specific person who wants to keep them down in quality, to shine with the own CDs? Might be a strange thought, but however, it was there.

Chris:

There's another reason we did it: because we wanted to, and we enjoyed it, and it had never been done before.

Jens:

Never done before? Chris, are you listening to other albums from the scene? Bjorn Lynne did that in 1998 already. Before that, there were tons of other concept albums like that. Just because it was made with C64 music does not mean it was new.

Chris:

In general people welcomed it: and not only my immediate clique, but people who wouldn't touch BIT 1 with a bargepole. Even people who didn't like C64 music liked BIT 3, and especially the storyline which helped make sense of the album.

Jens:

I doubt that, but if you say it here...

Chris:

Sidologie cover: I don't impose myself on the artists, because it's their CD, not mine. I suggest ideas, I point out problems, but I don't tell them how to do their job. That would ruin their artistic integrity, and also remove a lot of the enjoyment from the project: how much fun is it to produce a CD where someone else is telling you what to do all the time?

Jens:

Well, seems to me you are just giving away responsibility. You are the producer, aren't you?

Chris:

It seems ironic that you're telling me to be MORE mercenary: every single CD released had a compelling reason for release, and justifies its existence admirably.

Jens:

"Dreamscapes"? Reason? I have not seen any review so far, maybe you can help me out?

Chris:

The way to improve this is to increase the size of the market, which is what CDs such as Sidologie, Instant Remedy, Galway Remixed and Crystal Dreamscapes (and even Remix64) are trying to do. Lack of success so far has less to do with product quality than my own lack of
time and energy to fully promote the CDs and to do the promotional
work needed. Steps have recently been taken in this direction.

Jens:

Come on, Chris. This sounds too much like a very poor excuse. You are doing this since many years already, where is the success? I mean, your thoughts are welcome, but it seems to me you are telling yourself it is not your fault, but I think it is. IF your product does NOT lack in quality, why is there no wider audience? Why does no bigger magazine has articles about it? Just because it is independent?

Chris:

Feedback: many people have sent me many emails, and I have been on many forums. Some of those people who have been most vocal have
subsequently turned into beta-testers precisely because they bought
a different viewpoint to mine. They influenced the CD because they
were outspoken, but crucially unlike you, they were outspoken in a
constructive way: they stated what they didn't like, why they didn't like it,
and suggested alternatives or other ideas.

Jens:

That is actually very good, and I thank you for that. But it does not help me in any way, because I do not think the final result-such as "Karma 64" could be what the scene wanted, not to speak about something like "Dreamscapes".

Chris:

The core of your argument seems to be: "stop releasing crap CDs because they're taking the market away from good CDs".

Jens:

Correct.

Chris:

The problem is (a) the CDs you don't like aren't crap,...

Jens:

We have to be carefully here. As my own opinion does not count for everybody out there, so it is the same for yours. Chris, look what you have done the last years and ask yourself: was it right? Did it help the scene? Was it clever to allow products such as "Input 64"? You cannot tell me it was in your interest.

Chris:

and (b) CD preference varies wildly from one person to the next. So who can decide what should be released? All we can look at is whether the CD is worthwhile artistically
(and they are, no matter what you protest), and will make the world
a happier place by existing, by making some people happier.

Jens:

It just appears to me it is your own community that is happy about it. So tell me, how many CDs sold "Dreamscapes"? "Karma 64"? 100, 200, 400?

Chris:

I'll tell you something now: make the most of this while it's still going on. Because it won't last for ever. 10 to 20 years from now, when the CDs are unavailable and this scene is a pleasant memory, you'll wish that you'd been more positive about it, and enjoyed it to the full while you had the chance rather than carping on about it. You might even find that you enjoy the CDs more when you know there will never be any ever again. We've a limited period of time to do this stuff, and we need to make it as productive as possible.

Jens:

Nice words, and I really would love to enjoy it, but I cannot. Infact I cannot sit down and see how everything goes down. It is not about flaming you here, but you asked for opinions, and this is mine.

^Jens