Commodore Remix

Ok, it happens sometime but this morning it managed to give me the will to post a topic about it....

No, it's not the voting system.

It's the way people manages to express their valutations.

http://www.remix64.com/tune_336500.html

Let's see:

>Tas shouts: Trance but with a little bit of imagination.

This is not trance, it's commercial trancey dance and features all the things one may expect from a track of this kind, in full effect.

>_steve_ shouts: Nice trance mix, but a little on the long and repetitive side.

This is not trance (see above) and it's 'repetitive' as much as a commercial track of this kind is used to be.
It's not Beethoven, it's commercial dance...

>prowler shouts: Too much mainstream stomp, and lame samples (sorry). Where has the feeling gone you had with the Xenon 2, Gods, Romeo Knight remixes?

How can there be too much mainstream stomp if the target of the mix was to sound mainstream? you preferred other tracks by him? Should he always remix the same way?

>omoroca shouts: The speech samples don't save this one from being mediocre. Good instead of Average for the feel-good effect, though!

Well, i won't ever comment again other shouts by omoroca....

>klosterkatten shouts: The voice is annoying since it repeats itself, would have better if it was around 3minutes.

Yup, that's so unusual in commercial tracks, isn't it?

>LaLa shouts: Boring, overused rhythm, nothing here stands out. Technically a decent mix, but musically it's pretty average.

Musically it's what it wants to be, it never pretended to be the 5th symphony.

>Dan shouts: The vocals became really annoying really quick

see "klosterkatten".

>infamous shouts: Commercial trance style track, works quite well though the medievil feel doesnt pass over too well with trance music, that seems a little silly but the structure/melody of the tune is fantastic and you can't help but bop along to it. Love the vocal work

This is not trance...

>romeo_knight shouts: Technically ok, that's the only thing that saves it from average. I know you can do better, daXX!

Of course he can. if you consider commercial dance average (meaning, you don't like it) it's understandable. But 'better' is not what complains with your musical tastes. This is a successful remix because it manages perfectly to be what it wants to be. Beside personal tastes.

>eliot shouts: Not that bad

See "omoroca".

At the end we are at the usual pinpoint: people judges on his tastes about musical style, not on the effort of the remixes to fulfill his objective.
So we see the usual: people who don't like rap voting as 'shit' rap remix. People who don't like commercial dance doing the same on commercial remixes (even on THIS one, wich really stands out from the crowd).
People calling 'trance' what trance is not. Uh, not forgetting all the crap received by the ones who *dare* to do something different and/or original.

To the guys quoted (excluding omoroca and eliot):
it's not particularry against you, it's against this way of voting, wich i deeply hate.

Have a nice day.

DHS wrote:>omoroca shouts: The speech samples don't save this one from being mediocre. Good instead of Average for the feel-good effect, though!

Well, i won't ever comment again other shouts by omoroca....

What a sad day for me!

Interesting point. I wonder how the others see dhs' argumentation...

It's an old debate. From my point of view, you have to accept that people's tastes play a part. And you also have to accept that people may not even like a piece, even on it's "genre merrits", if there is such a thing. I don't think people purely judge something bad because they don't much care for a genre. But on the other hand, I personally feel that not all genres are created equal, meaning there can be inherrently more musical quality in some genres. But that's just my point of view...

I say suck it up and deal with the fact that it's a public domain and people are encouraged to express there oppinions often.

I read you loud and clear, DHS. Many people tend to forget that there a point to the reviews: being informative... (I try to be) Saying "I don't like it" or "Too little cowbell for my likings" is not that big a help. Maybe we could have a "Was this review any help (Y/N)" to get rid of those too subjective reviews.

I went back to listen to it again before commenting. I will agree it isn't trance, it has some trance elements, it also has (imo) some acid elements as well. But it's a standard dance type track for the most part.

On the other hand, I didn't really like it much either though it is technically competant. Nothing against the genre, plenty of examples I do like, it just didn't do much for me (hence I voted yellow as it turns out).

omoroca wrote:

DHS wrote:>omoroca shouts: The speech samples don't save this one from being mediocre. Good instead of Average for the feel-good effect, though!

Well, i won't ever comment again other shouts by omoroca....

What a sad day for me!

LOL! I'm starting to warm to this guy!

why do you call it "commercial"?
it's on rko, so it isn't

and if "commercial" means it has to be dull and repetitive and i if reach that goal, then i made the perfect remix?

exaggeratedly spoken, i only have to define my goal as to do "the most minimal remix" and my 1 second long remix with only one note deserves to be outstanding?

obviously there are different kinds of voters, some who judge on their taste, some who judge on technically aspects and some who judge on musical quality and inspiration. and some who vote completely out of this world, of course.

all in all a decent mixture, i think.

I've been downloaded from RKO but havent had time to sit and listen yet.

However I just listened to this track and I could see where some might say it is trance...it has elements bordering trance.

However the overall feel to me is what was the standard in dance music back 1992-1995

I have several CD's from that era that have similar sounding tracks.

you can listen to some Altern-8 from back in that era that has similar sounding vocals.

I can post some Commercial tracks from that era if people are interesting to hear as an example.

beyond wrote:Maybe we could have a "Was this review any help (Y/N)" to get rid of those too subjective reviews.

That (and the fact that we're discussing this here at all) will put pressure on the voters and thus influence their future votings, and that is not good.

Voting should be free from restrictions like "has to be informative" or "has to contain an in-depth scientific analysis of the tune or otherwise you'll be dissed on the message board". And it should be just for fun, I mean that's what we're all here for. At least I thought so.

This is something I've been looking for for years: a sort by genre-tab on RKO. It should have been there long ago so I'd never have to search for the words "rave" "techno" "hardcore" "happy" or whatever because I'm an imbicille who doesn't "get" all styles of music there is. Though now it looks kinda unbearable for a chosen someone to go through each and every tune on RKO and decide what genre it is (no one loves c64 remixes that much), but since you seem really good at this DHS I ask you to make 10 copies of yourself and make your clones do this work for me. Preferrably for free.

Ok, sorry for the stupid joke, but it would be great to have an expert on styles and genres to cathegorize future uploads on RKO, so that we'll never see a "Fröhn(Gabber Mix)" again, unless it truly is gabber.

Here is a great article on how to review & Critique, although its was written for reviewing and critiquing art it should apply to Music as well.

I often hear from people who post in the galleries that they wish more people would give "useful critiques". That they're tired of hearing, "Oh wow, that's great!" or "Super job!" when they know their picture needs improvements. Or on the other hand, getting trolling comments like, "This sucks!"

When I asked people in the Poser forum what stops them from giving critiques, I got a variety of answers:
"I'm not sure if the person wants to hear it."
"I tried that once and the artist got really upset."
"I feel intimidated because most artists here are better than me."
"I don't know how to put it into words - I'm afraid I'll offend the artist."
"Someone once told me that they knew someone who had a friend whose brother got banned for giving negative comments."
"When I see all the gushing comments already on a picture, it makes me feel stupid or nasty to point out the flaws."

This article will show you how to give constructive criticism that is helpful to the artist, and how to accept critique on your own works. And the best thing is, you can apply this technique to any kind of feedback or critique - from the Renderosity galleries, through to employee coaching!

Part 1: Giving Critique

The aim of critique should always be to help the artist. When you critique, you are giving the gift of feedback. You should not be critiquing out of a desire to hurt the artist or to show off your own knowledge or skills. The ideal result is that the artist learns something that will help them improve (either on this work, or future images.)

Step 1 - Assess the image

Critique shouldn't be rushed. If you are going to give someone the benefit of your opinion, make sure it's a considered opinion and not just a first impression.

It's sometimes hard to know where to start. Asking yourself these questions may help:

* What is my first impression of the image?
* Does that impression change as I look at the image more closely?
* How does the image make me feel? Sad, warm, happy, frightened?
* Does the image evoke any other senses? For example, "The grass is so detailed that I can practically smell it," or "I can almost hear the birds singing."
* What elements of the image stand out for you? Colours, lighting, textures?
* What is my favourite part of this image? or what do I feel is really done well? The pose, the colour balance, the shadows, the model's expression, etc.
* What do I feel could be improved? Should the shadows be stronger, the lighting brighter? Are there elements that don't "fit" - perhaps a photo-realistic texture next to something obviously painted?

Step 2 - Compose your critique

First things first - imagine that you are in the artist's shoes. Always compose your critique carefully and consider their feelings.

The generally-accepted format for critique (or any form of coaching or feedback) is called the Praise Sandwich. It's named that way because the idea is to put two positive things (the bread) around a negative aspect (the filling.) This avoids giving a wholly negative critique, which can feel dispiriting for both you and the subject. Here is an example of the praise sandwich method:

"I really like the way you've got the lighting - the shadows falling across the model's face give a very dramatic look. I do think you need to work on the pose - her left arm in particular looks very awkward. Facial expression is just right - she looks as if she's about to burst out laughing!"

Here are some other general guidelines that you can follow when critiquing:

* Check if the artist has written any comments that may affect your critique - are they looking for comments on something specific? If so, try to concentrate on that aspect.
* Always be specific. "Lighting doesn't work" is not very useful; "the lighting is too dim for me to see the character clearly - try putting another spotlight in" is much more helpful.
* Talk about the picture, NOT the artist! "Your modelling skills are non-existent" is a putdown. "The model seems unfinished - has it been uv-mapped? Will you be cleaning up the rough edges?" is both more specific and much more civilised.
* If you can't see anything that you feel could be improved, comment specifically on the best aspects of the image. Your comments will help the artist learn where their strengths lie and what they got right in this image.
* If possible, give ideas or advice for improvement. For example, "Try looking through the shadow cams to give you a better preview of where the shadows will fall."
* Always be honest! If you don't like something, say so. Don't worry about disagreeing with previous comments - this is your review and nobody else's!
* Don't try to candy-coat your words. "It's just my humble opinion, but..." or "I'm sorry but I think I can see a tiny little problem..." and other such phrases should be expunged from your vocabulary! Phrases like this are a kind of "safety net" - they tend to be used where there is a fear of upsetting the person critiqued. But instead they can read as patronising or false.
* Consider your audience. This is an international site - is the artist a native English speaker? Write clearly and avoid slang.

And the golden rule...

Always read through your critique before posting it, again putting yourself in the artist's shoes. Will your comments help the artist improve?

I must say, if I'm expected to structure my "shouts" in a specific way, I'll probably stop shouting all together. I always try to be polite but I don't give "criticism", I just give a personal comment on my experience with a remix. Take it or leave it.

I understand some comments are more helpful to remixers than others and I have full confidence they'll be able to sort through them.

I didn't sign up for detailed reviews, I just made a shout... That being said, the guidelines analog posted appear good for those who want to do good reviews.

That is a good point you make there exo, the review section is for the lengthy explanations and for those who maybe have more to say than a small string of writing can give you room to do.

I said what i said on my review because it has the hallmarks of a trance tune, it also sounds commercial (which to me means "clean/crisp and proffesional). Its just my quick opinion and a big up to the person who made the tune, kinda like when someone drives past you in a fast car and shouts.. NICE SKIRT! or something else.. you can either take that comment or leave it.

though the next person to accuse me of wearing a skirt is going to get a drop kick in the face.. its a fucking kilt.

Thats a brilliant way of putting it Infamous. There are two sections on remix64 for those who review at length and shouts. As you say, If you were driving past in your car you wouldn't likely shout.."Nice yellow, if slightly green embedded with lovelly roses and a swirling effect skirt which radiates your entire body very well with that deep red sweater made of wool." You shout.."Nice Skirt". And she'd role her eyes and say.."It's not a skirt, it's a dress!"... Oh well, she knew what i meant anyway.

It's not very detailed but gets the point across very basically.