The Eminent Unique 310 sound...

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 29/04/2007 - 11:26

Hi everyone

Being a great fan of Jarre (who aint?), I've allways wanted to recreate that E310U organ sound, that Jarre used so much on his first albums... I've tried pretty many things, and have come pretty close, but not quite...

I know that you jarre freaks will tell me, that I'll have to get the real thing

(what else to expect from people who think that there is no replacement for the original ... SID

)... but hey! it's too f...... big! and I've not got the space for it, unless I'd strap it onto my back

(the only space that is still free in my studio!)... It's my goal to reach it as close as possible with synthesizers...

Now... the thing is hard enough to recreate using most synthesizers, as that darn thing has only one amp envelope goin' for no matter how many keys you press... not many synths will recreate that feature.

... BUT...The hardest part of the recreation I find to be the modulation unit... I've looked on the schematics of the Solina String Ensemble (which is basically the same as unique... almost), and I unfortunately cannot understand those old ways of drawing signal paths etc. but it seems like the modulation section (chorus) is rather complicated... involving the raw signal being modulated in pitch 3 times (3 stage chorus), but it involves a lot more than just that... it has some tremolo modulation and phase reversion of some of the stages as well... basicaly I'm right now trying to recreate just that modulation unit... but as I see it, nothing in terms of real FX units old and new do this type of modulation... anyone know of something similar? that chorus sound is really fat and very special for the right tone on the Jean sound... you can check this site for MP#'s of the effect:

http://www.perkristian.net/Eminent_310_Unique_Audio.htm

I've been thinking that this chorus might be recreatable in some modular synth like the Modular G2 or equal... I don't need info on the phasing part... it's done with an Electroharmonix smallstone running at lower voltage... that's allready done, and working fine

So to recreate the sound (as close as possible) you'd have to have the following (and in the same order):

1. Simple polyphonic Saw Oscillator (simple gate)
2. Global Amp envelope (legato style)
3. 3 stage chorus modulation unit
4. EH Smallstone Phaser
5. Delay unit.

That should be it, exept that some filters are thrown in on various places in the signal path of the E310U also, but they are easily fixed.

So I guess that the question here is; Does any of you know the signal routing of the E310U's modulation unit? ... the schematics are downloadable from the net here:

http://www.retrosound.de/Solina.html

Maby someone with more electrical knowhow can decipher that diagram, and explain what signal goes where and how?... currently it looks like everything is connected to everything in that darn modulation curcuit!

It's the last brick in my puzzle missing

Now, I know I'm probably asking more that what the avegare musician need or want to know, but hey!... maybe there are just a few Jarre geeks in here, who know something... MARCEL? O2?

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 29/04/2007 - 11:33

To hear the difference when the modulation is in/out, check this link... first audio example on the site:

http://www.dse.nl/~rbos/solina/index.html

and by the way; the Electroharmonix Small Stone phaser is just amazing! ... you really get a sound out of this thing, that I've yet to see as good in a digital phaser... If you want the Jean sound... there is no way around this fancy pedal. It's really useful on almost any string or pad sound, and will take you right back to the Oxygene/Equinoxe days

If you got two of these like me, then try hooking them up in stereo, and set them with slight different rates... use an atmospheric pad with lots of harmonics, and left right stereo panning and the like, and you'll get a stereo image that will knock your brain loose, and start to wobble around behind your brainpan!!!

... just a tip ... I'd not recommend you do this with headphones on, while drinking alkohol, unless you remember that big red bucket, and make sure it's places close by... just in case

Analog-X64 · Post by **Analog-X64** » 29/04/2007 - 12:50

What a great find Razmo, thanks for sharing.

I was listenting to the samples from that link you provided, at first I thought they were samples from the original album, and than I realised the clearity of the recording and than the varied speed playing of the Equinoxe Sample.

WOW!! Must be a dream to own that equipment and recreate those sounds. Would be a good opportunity to make some Awesome Oxygene and Equinoxe like recordings or remixes.

And it seems like he did, check out a couple of Equinoxes Remixes, Oxygene, Music for Supermarkets and some other neat works.

http://www.perkristian.net/Music.htm

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 29/04/2007 - 13:30

Analog-X:

Yep!... it's an awesome instrument that Eminent... but beware, that the EH Phaser pedal is the absolute icing of the cake! ... It's sound is sooooo smooth and velvet like, it's impossible to like a digital phaser once you've played around with the smallstone... all analog phaser... to get the very low sweeps though, you have to put the volage down to between 7-8 volts (like an almost dead battery)... and this phaser will spice up almost any digital sound, making it warm , spine tinkling and creamy...

Of course you will never reach the true sound when you try to emulate it, but I belive that you can get very close if you use an older 80's analog synth with the right chorus modulation and EH phaser.... it's that darn modulation engine of the eminent that is the problem... it's fat, swirling, wide and just really OOOMPH!!! HERE I COME!! like.... if you get me meaning?

without this fatness, the emulation sound a little clean and sterile...

I'll have a few examples of the phaser in stero up soon... watch this thread

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 29/04/2007 - 15:39

Hi again... as promised, I've uploaded some examples of the Small Stone phaser in action... in stereo...

The demos was made using an Ensoniq ESQ-1 hybrid digital/analog synth... in fact this is a bit related to the SID chip, since this is one of the first synthesizers Bob Yannes disigned with others when he left Commodore and founded Ensoniq.... so take a listen to SID's littlebrother on CEM filter chips

... run through the EH Small Stone phaser, and with added delay lastly...

The demo of my Emininet Unique sound still leaves something to be desired, but it's the closest Ive come yet...

There are a great deal of other demo's as well... some of the MIDI box SID, with real SID sounds

And yes... a few other of my tunes... inkluding an unfinished Tarzan remix

http://www.putfile.com/razmo

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 29/04/2007 - 16:00

And oh... by the way... most of the demo's has been recorded live, so forgive me for the bad timing hehe!

And also, it's not my fault, if you desperately want a MIDI Box SID after listening to the SID demos!!! ...

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 29/04/2007 - 16:17

And one more thing; if anyone believes that SID6582A is the exact same as the SID8580 (both run at 9 volt, and sound alike... to a degree), then check out the two demos of the band pass filter on 8580 and 6582A ... there is a definite difference in the band pass filter of the two... it's the same instrument played on both demo's...

Well, this was off topic, but I believe no one minds... right?

Condor · Post by **Condor** » 29/04/2007 - 23:24

HM, I used some Eminent soundfont for my trance track with a distorsion.. There were Eminent strings and Eminent Pluck... That was 3 years ago, and sound of Eminent was amazing. Here is part of that track.
http://www.speedyshare.com/137636446.html

And, here you go the strings:
http://www.sf2midi.com/index.php?page=sdet&id=8975

But I can't find the pluck soundfont, it was free. I can search through CD's and upload soundfont it if there is anyone interested

Analog-X64 · Post by **Analog-X64** » 29/04/2007 - 23:32

The Strings and Plucks are right here:

http://www.perkristian.net/Eminent_310_ ... dfonts.htm

I've never tried using SoundFonts... how do they work? Will they work in Fruity Loops?

Analog-X64 · Post by **Analog-X64** » 30/04/2007 - 2:50

I listend to all of Razmos samples and I like them very interesting. Now regarding "Ensoniq ESQ 1 Eminent Unique Sound" the first portion sounded normal than after the pause it sounded fatty and nice. What happened there? was that with the pedal you speak of? if so who makes this peddal and how much is it? would be interesting to see what could be done with my Roland SH-101. or Roland MKS30 also known as Planet-S.

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 30/04/2007 - 6:34

Hi again...

Well, I know of the soundfont, and have them myself.... also have the older "XXL - String Machines" sample CD... Samples are ok, but as usual, I'm more into the real thing, or at least emulation, and there is many reasons for that... First off, the sound of the eminent should be samples for each and every key if I'm to use it, and the reason for that is, that the modulation unit would sound wrong when pitch shiftet, as the rates of the oscillators (LFOs) would change with pitch, which they will not using a sample of every key, and I've not seen any sample library that does that yet.... second, each key should be sampled at least 4-8 times, and switched between in random.... otherwise the sound would seem sterile and the same on every keypress.... old analog machines have free-running oscillators and "randomness" about them, that make every keypress sound a little different.... yes yes, I nknow I'm perfectionistic, but hey!... that's who I am

And about the Ensonic ESQ-1 sound of the eminent... well, the first part of it is where I tried to emulate the modulation chorus... It's not done the right way though, as it's emulated using three sawtooth oscillators, modulating each by a separate LFO... it has no stereo perspective (aside from what the delay makes)... the second part of it is where the two Electroharmonix Smallstone phasers set in

... the phaser is also used on the other ESQ demos, just at different rates... The smallstone does not cost that very much... about US$50 I'd guess... just remember that it's used as an INSERT effect, and not the usual AUX send type... the dry signal is not to be mixed in to get the true effect. also, the input to the pedal cannot take as hot a signal as normal pro-gear, so turn the volume a bit down to avoid distortion.

Another thing is, that I read everywere that the modulation effect used on old stringer machines is in fact a so called CHORUS ENSEMBLE effect... so I've been playing with the idear of getting a Boss CE-5 chorus ensemble analog pedal, and see what that does to the sound. maybe it'll get me closer to the fat and warm chorus of the stringer machines....

Or I could just go for a Solina String Machine... one's up for purchase in the danish version of EBAY at the moment he he!... though it's way overprcied, and the solina, even though it's basically the same as the eminent, still sounds a bit different... a bit like 6581 and 8580 sound different... the real organ is much warmer and rounded in it's sound.

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 30/04/2007 - 6:46

Analog X:

I'm sure you can get a long way with the MKS-30 and also SH-101. now the SH-101 is monophonic, so you will not get any string sounds out of it, since you'll need chords to get that Jarre sound, but it's analog, and with acid lines and fast phaser settings, that combination can REALLY sound fat and special... the smallstone can be used for many great effects.

The MKS-30 as I recall has two oscillators (I've got an MKS-50 myself). The trick is to learn how to make a "stringer sound"... it's not enough to just detuner two sawtooth waveforms.... a stringer sound is bubbling and sparkling in sound (hard to describe)... the effect that makes it sound a bit like a bow grinding on a violin string. The way I achieve it is by modulating one of the oscillators (or two if I've gotr 3 osc) in pitch gently by an LFO, and preferably in both positive and negative amounts... and to get a sense of randomness, I use an LFO shape with a random shape and the right speed... it works quite well, but it does NOT give the fat sound of the modulation found on the Eminent, rather the sound of older Roland stringers.

You have to remember though, that the more harmonically rich the sound going to the phaser is, the greater the effect is, which is why chords and fat modulated and chorded stringer sounds are perfect. but the sound need not be just stringer sounds... any pad will do, and if you work in stereo with the phasers, the stereo image will sound dramatic this way when the sound going into the phasers has great difference in left/right sides... some of my digital machines with atmospheres (huge stero persp. and harmonics) sound extremely cool and makes your head wobble with headphones... sometimes sounding like your ears slide in and out of response because of the harmonic contents produced that seems to slither and shift from side to side in glorious ways!

... it definitely creates a very wide soundscape...

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 30/04/2007 - 6:51

In fact I'm going to get more pedals in the future... it's like a candystore looking at all those weird effects pedals, and many of the electroharmonics and boss versions are analog... I'm thinking about getting the whole new NANO series from electroharmonix... small, cute and cheap they are

... especially the smallstone, smallclone (chorus) and Metal Muff I'm interested in (distortion).... you should try out a metal muff on your SH-101 Analog-X

... and the fun part is to hook them all up in a patchbay, and connect them any way you want...

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 30/04/2007 - 6:58

Nice track by the way Condor

... I like it, but the Eminent sound surely got lost in that distortion did it not?

... I can't hear anything that resemble the eminent

... noetheless, the sound is good, and just proves that eminent can be used for many a thing

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 30/04/2007 - 7:20

Uploaded three more demos to the above link... It's the ESQ Stringer again, but this time with phaser in mono (only one phaser)... it will probably remind a bit more of jarre stringers... also a "dry" version playing something you might be familiar with, to give an impression of the patch authenticity...

And as a bonus, a demo of the KORG DSS-1 sampler keyboard from the 80s with analog filters... in fact the last korg machine made with analog filters... this machine is greatly underestimated, and it will fire some trance action off in unison mode that will kill even a virus if you ask me

... this machine has so much bottom I'd say it's bottomless!

... and they are dirt cheap!