Boying a SidStation, maybe

pfk · Post by **pfk** » 10/05/2007 - 8:43

Hoi!

I just spotted a SidStation up for grabs at a net auction, and I'm thinking of buying it. I'm a little worried that it'll just end up collecting dust next to the rest of my music gear, but I'm still hoping to find time to become a musical genius some day

So, how much would you pay for a SidStation these days. And do you think it's likely they'll pop back into production again some day? The guy is asking for approx. 1300 euros, so I'd rather get a new one, if that's likely to happen. To be honest I still though Elektron had a few left of the last batch, but their web site just told me otherwise...

- pfk

Tonka · Post by **Tonka** » 10/05/2007 - 9:42

Hello Mr. pfk!

I think your initial thought is correct - it'll be a dust magnet... Only consider buying it if you are a collector as it will be highly collectable one day, I'm sure. There are better options available for getting the SID sound into your music otherwise - all of them much cheaper.

Hardsid Midi: http://www.hardsid.com
Quadrasid VST: http://www.refx.net/?page=quadraSID
Prophet 64: http://www.prophet64.com
MIDI box SID: http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid.html

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 10/05/2007 - 10:54

PFK:

I've had the SID Station a long time ago... bought it new for a price, that if I think back was WAY TOO STEEP compared to it's efficiency!... First of, it often crashed, scrambling every data in the machine, and the pots was flimsy and bad quality.... second, it only support the 6581 SID and NOT the 8580, which was a major concern to me, as the 8580 is much better suited for music making, as the filters work correctly (this may be a matter of taste of course), but also, the 6581 is a hell of a lot noisier then the 8580, because you can hear the oscillators "ring" when the envelope should have become quiet at the end... this is fixed with 8580.

If i may give advice, I'd go for the MIDIBOX SID instead, if you have soldering skills... made by Thorsten Klose, and it's a darn good SID synth, costing but fractions of the SID Station... much much better engine (the best if you ask me!) ... You can buy the components and PCB's from a website called SMASH TV, where you get everything you need to build it yourself. the biggest prob. is finding a proper housing for it, and assembling the whole thing... you can find info on the machine here:

http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid.html
(link to SMASH TV also on that page)

If you are not into building your own machine, and have a free PCI slot in your PC, you could also go for the HARDSID PCI... It's more expensive, but still a long way from the price of the SID Station... and the benefit here is, that it's integrateable with the PC sequencer, and can house up to 4 SID chips on the board! ... it also have a synthesizer architecture in software to use it in your sequencer, though I think that the engine of the MIDIBOX SID is better.... one major advantage to the Hardsid is though, that you can playback all the SID tunes of the HVSC collection on THE REAL THING!!! ... good for sampling real riffs from the original tunes (forget about that VST SID plug... when you have heard the real thing, nothing beats it!... period!

).

All in all, I'd get one of each, and are planning to actually

Then also, with the MIDIBOX SID, you'll have to find a SID Chip yourself, cannibalizing a real C64 for it... some communities on the net find this being almost a fall from grace of the greater C64 gods, but hey... we just preserve the sound of the C64

Hope this helps a bit...

jgb · Post by **jgb** » 10/05/2007 - 17:04

For 1300 euros? Never ever. For that amount of money you can get a much better piece of gear.

I had a Sidstation for a couple of year, but it was truly a dust collector for me. I never used it, so I sold it instead.

Jan Lund Thomsen · Post by **Jan Lund Thomsen** » 10/05/2007 - 20:11

Sod the SIDstation, I want an MB-6582.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wilba/sets ... 358133094/

Of course I wouldn't know what to do with it - but with a box looking *that* cool, I hardly think that's a relevant reason not to get it.

Analog-X64 · Post by **Analog-X64** » 10/05/2007 - 20:38

I was one of the first to buy a Sidstation many years ago. I paid something like $750 Canadian which was/is a lot of money.

At that time my Audio Gear was still Hardware based, and so I was controlling it via my Roland W-30 Sampler.

Everything was great for about a week and than boom... for no good reason the display went scrambled. I contacted Elektron they said I had to ship it back. So I did and waiting for 3-4 weeks and it was repaired and shipped back... I turned it on once to see that it worked and went back in the box and haven't touched it, in the fear that it will scramble again.

In the mean time I purchased some 8580R5's in the hopes to build a MIDIBox Sid, but I wasnt sure which combination of boards to buy.

I'm very good with Electronics so it wouldn't be hard to solder a kit together.

Maybe someone here can suggest which components to purchase

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 10/05/2007 - 20:50

Analog X:

Well, SMASH TV sell the two boards needed, with components and all, so it's just to buy a Core kit, and a SID module... all you need is a soldering iron, and tin to go with it.... well, aside from a few extras like a housing and the connectors/buttons to go with it.... and of course a power suply.

My own plan is not to build that fancy control surface with buttons and knobs, since I rarely touch my machines frontplate anyways... I control all from within Sounddiver... In fact my MB SID is nothing but an old cannibalised Control Synthesis Deep bass 9 analog synth 1U rack housing (it has build in power, wich makes it advantageous... then MIDI in/out, Audio in/out and an on/off switch.... all control of the machine can be done with MIDI.

One thing to mention is though, that Thorsten currently is working on the V2 engine that will support TWO SID modules on one core ... making the engine able to be stereo... yes! every parameter for one module will be doubled for the second giving total seperate control... really nice... go to the website forum, and read more about it.

well...there is a whole lot more to the MB SID, so go and read about it... it's the coolest SID synth ever build in my opinion, and I even helped Thorsten a little bit with some code for using the filter better on the 8580, as well as the "curve" code of the envelope attack/decay/release curve...

even the engine will have more engine types... lead-engine, drum-engine etc. etc.

Analog-X64 · Post by **Analog-X64** » 10/05/2007 - 21:26

I get a sense of urgency with these type of home brew projects as sometimes production is limited and as time passes, people running these projects lose interest and you cant get them anymore..

Thats why i would like to at least buy the parts while I can.

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 10/05/2007 - 21:59

Analog X:

I understand your concern, but the MB SID has been around for quite some time, and if I am right, I don't think Thorsten will abandon anything for quite a while... the CORE module is the fundamental basis of all the projects he's doing, and he's VERY reluctant to build anything new, and want everything to work with his core module.... he has upgraded the MCU RISC processor a number of times, but ALL of them has been compatible with that very same CORE module... also the SID module is the same, exept for some revision changes, but all revisions work anyways...

Also, Thorsten is always listening to suggestions, and I have given him many types of advise for making the engine better, and every time I have suggested something, he's shown eager to try things out, and usualy he has handed me beta versions VERY VERY fast! ... the good thing about him is that he's enthusiastic about the SID project, and just want to make it as good as he possibly can... at least that is the impression I get.

Also take a look at his FM chip project based on the SoundBlaster AWE card FM chip... again a superb project, that I'm very interested in building too... also because I know that Thorsten is coding routines in PIC MCU that is DAMN FAST! he's even optimised the oscillator phase reset of all oscillators of SID to be the shortest possible between the oscillators... I tell you; when all three osc are phase reset, and playing the same waveform, the output is so loud, that fed through the filter it will begin distorting so much, it can make 303 acid lines! ... this engine just is THE BEST!

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 10/05/2007 - 22:13

I uploaded two demo's made with the SID hardware project I started myself a long time ago... I used the same MCU as Thorsten, and his MB SID can do the same things as these two demo's... there is a bit of delay and chorus involved, but that's all.... one shows the phase reset , and the other the effect of having a fast logarithmic-like curve on the decay... really good for basses.

http://www.putfile.com/razmo

Instant Remedy · Post by **Instant Remedy** » 11/05/2007 - 7:21

I think quadraSID is a real nice VST and you get a real bang for the buck - $59. Very light on the CPU also. No messing with MIDI and hardware, just pops up in a window sounding great.
Only by playing with the demo you come up with real nice pulse-basses, arp-chords and hubbard leads, presets leads you to a good start.

Not sure about the GUI though, would like a more "classic VA"-style layout and hide some of those technical switches in the back. And I don't always like the "true to SID achitechture" with 4 sids with 3 ch each. Fiddling with individual SIDs and voices feels kind of unnecessary techy for some tasks. But routing stuff around is cool too. People dealing with SID-sounds often has interest in those things I suppose.

Tonka · Post by **Tonka** » 11/05/2007 - 8:11

Jan Lund Thomsen wrote:Sod the SIDstation, I want an MB-6582.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wilba/sets ... 358133094/

Of course I wouldn't know what to do with it - but with a box looking *that* cool, I hardly think that's a relevant reason not to get it.

OMFG! That's a beauty!!! And 8 x SIDS?!

I think I just had an orgasm!

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 11/05/2007 - 9:25

Tonka:

Yes, that machine is a wonder, but as far as I know, Wilba made this board especially for himself, and there are no plans on making this into a kit for purchase... he has given the PCB layouts out for everyone to make it themselves, but until some site like SMASH TV decide to manufacture the PCB with components, It's not really available for the public... sadly.

And about that Quad VST SID plug.... I'd say, that if you do not need other sounds than those not involving the filter emulation, you would do fine with the VST... but if you are true retro, the filter emulation just suck... it will never sound the same as the real thing, as not even two 6581 sound the same... also... filters are analog, and I've still to hear a digital filter that sounds true analog... maybe it's just me beeing too retro or something, but that is my opinion

Tonka · Post by **Tonka** » 11/05/2007 - 9:48

razmo wrote:Tonka:

Yes, that machine is a wonder, but as far as I know, Wilba made this board especially for himself, and there are no plans on making this into a kit for purchase... he has given the PCB layouts out for everyone to make it themselves, but until some site like SMASH TV decide to manufacture the PCB with components, It's not really available for the public... sadly.

Apparently, he's going to be making the boards available for purchase. People will just need to source the components and make a case (sounds easy, right)?!

And about that Quad VST SID plug.... I'd say, that if you do not need other sounds than those not involving the filter emulation, you would do fine with the VST... but if you are true retro, the filter emulation just suck... it will never sound the same as the real thing, as not even two 6581 sound the same... also... filters are analog, and I've still to hear a digital filter that sounds true analog... maybe it's just me beeing too retro or something, but that is my opinion

6581 filter emulation can be enhanced with some mild distortion with Quadrasid. If you haven't got the space/energy to mess around with 25 year old gear, VST is the way to go.

But you're entirely right - nothing sounds as good as a real SID chip!

Razmo · Post by **Razmo** » 11/05/2007 - 10:42

Tonka:

OK!... things has evolved since I was at the MBSID site last time then

... it's very tempting to make that one, since everything is integrated onto one single board... I'll most likely go in that direction, if they just supply the components with the PCB... I'll not want to source the components myself... I bet, that the PCB will end up at smash TV some day, with components included...

And about the VST, yes... surely it will do as a substitute, but never ever a replacement

... I personaly like dirty old filters, that have a life of their own, and that is exactly what the SID has, especially the 6581... dirty and rough! ... digital just simply sound too "clean and precise" in my ears... they make some VSTs that do a good job at sounding analog, but in my ears they sound rather "grungy" instead of warm and analog. Until yet, the filter I think is closest to what I like in a digital machine is the one found in IMPOSCAR... usualy the problem shows itself with resonance... analog seems gritty and dirty at higher reso settings, like if they are slightly "out of tune" or something like that... digital is just razor sharp and bubling..... each has it's own right, and I like both analog and digital... but when we are talkin retro, like the SID, then there can be only one!