Commodore Remix

Hi everyone

I've been fiddling about with effects lately here in my studio, and has had quite some debates with myself about what is the right thing to do with effects in music composition, and this has led me to wonder what you other composers do with effects, and how you use them in your music?

Personally, in the past, I simply just used an instrument in my music that I found to suit well... and continued that way all the way through the mix... unfortunately I also found that my mixes always sounded a bit "muddy", and I'm now beginning to suspect the effects to be the culprit! (in addition to poor EQ'ing... but that has changed since then )

I like to set effects up into two distinkt groups: those that modulate the sound, and then the ambient ones... the ambient ones are my main concern, and those are of course the DELAY and REVERB effects. The other effects like chorus, flanger, phaser, distortion etc. do not change the percieved "space" of the mix, so they are generally not a problem unless we are talking about bass sounds, where chorus and stuff like that will make the tightness worse....

I've been listening a lot to the works of Vangelis and Kitaro lately... and my conclusion here is, that if you listen carefuly, every instrument seem very lightly processed, and often in mono, though panned in the stereo field... yet, the works of those musicians sound VERY lush and clear... and I've come to the conclusion, that they use just ONE uniform reverb (quality) for the whole score... this makes the scores much more clear, most likely because a lot of different reverbs/delays from different instruments will just "mud up" everything... also two different reverbs might make the score sound as if it's "divided up" in two different environments... that could be done for effects of course, but in general it sounds bad.

Now I'm close to edit out all reverb/delay on every instrument in my synths patches here, and start to use this aproach of one single reverb/delay, but I'm not sure it's wise... many of my machines have built in effects that are wonderful in themselves, and their use can lead to wonderful sonic soundscapes on their own... yes... ON THEIR OWN! ... but I fear I'll regret doing this in the end...

What do YOU do with effects in your mixes?... is this probably genre related?... NewAge certainly sounds cool with just a single reverb, but what about Trance and Techno?... and what with the drums?

AAARGH! I'm getting crazy thinking about this... maybe I just think too much

Well, usually in the end-phase of a project, it helps to remove all effects and add them one by one, if still nessecary. And that's the trick: an effect that sounds great on a solo instrument might do nothing but add mud in context of the whole mix. Using only one type of reverb for everything surely will cause the soundscape to be more coherent...

razmo wrote: And I've come to the conclusion, that they use just ONE uniform reverb (quality) for the whole score... this makes the scores much more clear, most likely because a lot of different reverbs/delays from different instruments will just "mud up" everything... also two different reverbs might make the score sound as if it's "divided up" in two different environments... that could be done for effects of course, but in general it sounds bad.

Well, depends really. In those days they probably just used one old EMT plate for everything. (I guess Marcel Donné can tell you more about it.)

However, when I want to seperate different instruments inside a complex mix, I use different verbs to give them different rooms to fit it, so they all sound distinguished. It's a pretty good trick actually...

razmo wrote: Now I'm close to edit out all reverb/delay on every instrument in my synths patches here, and start to use this aproach of one single reverb/delay, but I'm not sure it's wise...

Not sure about the latter, but I guess killing all the verbs on your sounds is a good idea and will make your mixes more clear for sure!..

R.

Speaking of seperation, I've often seen charts showing which frequency Drums, Bassline, Synth Leads should sit so they dont interfere with each other.

But how do you go about doing this separation? Look at the diagram below.

I think that is one of the problems in my productions, I dont do any kind of processing as far as frequencies.

Use delay instead of reverb. It does pretty much the same thing, but with more clarity in a big mix.

Lman: Yes!... that trick surely would be really nice to use, and I've thought about it a few times before... the major problem is perhaps, that I've got a tendency to actualy HEAR the "mess" as I compose, and then I've got quite a time convincing myself from actually removing it until the mixing stage, and it takes a lot af technical knob tvisting and menu switching on all that outboard gear, so I've been thinking about the easiest solution; just removing it all from the beginning once and for all ... but again, the effects of individual instruments add to the inspirational process in the beginning, so it's a hard choice for me. But I think I'll just try to remove in the mixing phase like you sugest

Reyn: ARGH! now you tell me, that the opposite can be as good a thing ... well, I sort of knew that allready anyways... it's all a matter of taste, and I'll probably get as many different oppinions as there are musicians... but yes, using different verbs can surely set instruments apart if that is what you want, though in some cases is also not the desired... I guess that I'm just trying to hear what you other guys do, to see if I've got anything more to learn about effects I believe that in symphonic scores and NewAge, the whole score will sound more "realistic" with just a single overall reverb... even with just a simple overall reverb you can do many things... the louder the FX send, the more "grand" the instrument will sound, even if not necessarily at loud volume... the space makes it sound "louder", while lower dry sound than the reverb will make the sound seem HUGE, but very distant etc. etc.... but when two verbs enter, it can seem confusing. but with TYrance and techno music, the matter is probably different... a big sonic BOOOOM with otherworldly reverb length, mixed with less verbed trance leads, and snaredrums with room verbs... well is not unlikely... what I'm after is to make everything more clear and un-muddy.

Analog-X: Yep... I've been playing with the idear of different instruments playing different ranges to avoid EQ mudding... but unfortunately many patches are usually tuned octaves away from the true scale, and also many patches are so drained in verb, delay and harmonics, they take up almost all of the spectrum to some extend... I've learned here, that you have to use your own common sense, and your ears... but generally you get better of with "thin" sounds that sound dull alone, as they tend to mix much better because of their limited "bandwidth"... one useful thing I found is, that I have WaveLabs Spectrum meter online while mixing... with this tool I can easily see which areas every instrument take up, and see where new instruments add to the spectrum, to make sure it's evened out and filled well in over the whole spectrum... and I can see in real time as I EQ lows and highs out ... really a neat trick.

Tonka: Yes... using delay will do it, but also delay can cause problems if too long, or notes tend to "overlap" on some repeats... of course a ducking delay can fix this, and this is also something that I do a lot. Once in a while you just cannot get around the use of a big roaring reverb, like on trance leads etc.... I guess that what I'm really interested to know about reverbs is, if there is REALLY any cool benefits from using several in the same score, and I've had quite a problem reasoning with myself about this... it is a big and tiresome technical bit of work required to remove it during the composing stage, as I hardly ever touch (or can reach) my gear at this point in time...

But well... I guess I'll come to a conclusion sooner or later

Analog X:

And according to that schematic you posted, I would like to hear an orchestra all play the middle C at the same time ... seems every instrument can play this... damn, it would sound muddy!

A bit surprised to see my favourite symphonic instrument being the one with the biggest range of them all.... yes, the Harp... The harp is just soooo beautiful! ... I just adore it's velvet smooth and melacholic sound... If I were to play a symphonic instrument, that would be the one!

I think that only the Grand Concert Piano will exeed that range!?

As you could see from the Pictures of the Hardware Gear that I used to make my music, I was limited with effects. If I selected a particular reverb, thats all I had to work with with all 16 tracks on my mixing board. I could send a Midi control to switch from one effect to another type of effect in the middle of a song but thats pretty much it.

So I would as an example select a Hall effect and depending on the instrument used, I would increase the Gain on the Mixing board to add that hall effect ever so slightly to some instruments vs others.

So essentially I had one type of Reverb through out the entire song, with the exception of certain songs where I could switch to a different effect during a portion of the song and switch back.

I listen to songs released here and I listen to what I've recorded in the past and something is lacking.

I've never used Compression, I've never tried separating instruments using EQ and their frequency, and I've never tried using Multiple Reverb or Delay effects in the same song.

Proper Mixing and EQuing is a mystery too me, I've bought several Computer Music Magazines with promise on explaining how to properly mix and EQ, but they are too technical for me, or I just dont get it.

But its something I'd like to learn one of these days.

To make my point easier to understand I think that what I'm trying to find out here is, to get as close to my own personal prefered line Tech/Creative line... with this I mean, that the technical tweaking during the creative phase should not be so much it intervenes with my creativity, but this of course also goes the other way around...

I have come as close to this line as I can, but just wanted to hear what you guys do, to see if I missed any great knowladge, tips and tricks

Analog X:

Seems like you've been using the "one reverb" type of approach in your old material then .. And I think, that if someone does not have any skills at spectrum EQ'ing every track, that this is the best way, as one verb will most certainly give you the most clean overall mix... if you start to use more verbs, you'd have to know what you are doing, or you would end up with something that sound rather muddy with several verbs messing all over the spectrum.

Spectrum EQ'ing is also something I've resently started to experiment with, and it franticly IS something that will help your sound tremendously. In general, you don't need to understand very much, just start a spectrum meter like the one in WaveLab, and watch this as you add new instruments to your mix... you will see that many instruments take up a certain "bandwith" or "chunk" of frequencies depending on their complexity... the highest ones in the "chunk" is where the instrument lies in the spectrum... try to avoid that new instruments play in the same area, or they will compete about those frequencies are become unclear...

This spectrum allocation will vary according to your instruments but also your arrangement setup... you may have parts drop in and out, taking up or leaving certain bandwidths... it's like a jigsaw puzzle... fill in as much as you can, but two "bricks" can never fill the same space

Another trick is (in the mastering process) to filter all frequencies under 32Hz away... we don't hear this, and it will only make the bass more less tight if there.

Compression I've not used at all actually, and is still an area I'd like to know more about...

Analog X:

Sometimes though, you have instruments that will most certainly be competing about frequencies... and one of the most problematic ones are usually the bass, and kick drum. They both use the range from about 80 hz to about 180 hz (if we look away from the "click" sound of the kick)... and if you listen carefuly to almost all trance and dance music, the kick and bass never sound at the same time... the bass is rather often "off beat" to avoid them destroy each other.... sometimes it's just unavoidable, and some musicians also use a trick with sidechaining the bass part with a compressor, so that the compressor turns down the volume of the bass, when the kick hits... this is rather common... just take a listen to Sonic Wanderers "Kick Start II"... you'll easily hear how the sound "pumps" with each kick drum sound... if he just used an overall compression on all or just the bass I'm not sure, but compression is clearly present.... still one of my favourite mixes though... really KLF'sk

... And if you have the option, EQ the bottom out of the reverb... The most crucial spectrum area in a tight mix, is the bass region, so filtering the verbs bass frequencies out will give you a MUCH clearer mix, and much tighter bass response... This trick is very useful with trance music, as the leads most usualy drained in reverb, and if this is not low EQ'ed, you will most certainly end up with something similar to an audio spectrum "whirlpool" draining every life out of your mix.

P.S... not pretending to be a PRO mind you!... I'm in the learning process, ... I'm just giving out what I've learned so far from trial and error in hope to spare some of you the trouble

Right now trying to get to making music is like reaching for the light at the end of the tunnel. All kinds of circumstances in the past year or so including recent months has made that goal even further.

However I can still read and learn and when the time comes I can apply this knowledge. I've also accumulated a lot of ideas in my head on what I want to record, I've probably got 3-4 songs stored just need to unleash them.

I've heard of SideChaining and I understand the Pumping effect you are talking about. Something I'll have to physically test out when I get the chance.

When the time comes I will start a thread and get a dialogue started and hopefully everyone can put their input and help me through the process of a Proper Mix with Compression, Proper Reverb or Delay.

Thats one of the things I love about this community, everyone is willing to help answer questions and all you need to do is, ask the question.

Analog X:

Exactly.. that is also what I've felt... this forum seem extrodinarily friendly and welcoming compared to many other forums... don't ask me why!? ... It must be that magnificent C64 karma, that all (or most) of us has been subjected to in the past, messing about with that ol' wonderful machine ... is it perhaps our frustrations from the past when people, friends and families wrinkeled their noses at the SID sounds that make us go: "HEY! THERE ARE MORE LIKE ME!!!" when they stumble upon this forum? ... "I'M NOT ALONE!!!" ... I choose to believe that! ... yep!

That reminds me of an event i was subject to in the higher of classes in basic school here in Denmark... Our teacher had this idear, that everyone take some favourite music to class, play it and then tell the whole class about it afterwards.... yeah... you guessed it did you not? ... I brought Rob, I brought Daglish, Galway and Whittaker.... boy I still remember my teachers facial expression after playing the 4th tune, and writing names like Hubbard and the others on the blackboard, trying to explain my passion... well... my teacher had this feeling that 4 tunes was probably enough and did not even let me finish my hard work... ... yeah... the misunderstood youth! ... well, it was not popular being nerdy back then.... has that changed?