Commodore Remix

Okay - I know I'm always on here looking for advice, and this is one for me. I want a sound card for my new PC rig and would like some suggestions/advice if possible. I have PCI and PCI-E slots available.
The primary use would be to allow low latency use of midi keyboards (I use a EMU X-Board 49)
I also loved my last card (Soundblaster) for it's ability to allow me to record "what you hear". I.e. whatever plays on the computer can be recorded (youtube clip, interesting sound in a game, etc) so I'd like this feature again.
I'd prefer something with a front panel, but could live without one.

Budget around £120.
Xonar appear to have taken over from Creative as most popular general usage cards but I have read worrying reviews from users about high latency with no fix using latest drivers, etc. I'd consider any make so long as it offers me what I need, and be of good quality too (I guess you figured that one out already)

I am now in the hands of the musical gods that reside with-in this forum....all help appreciated as always

My rig spec
Intel I7 930 Processor 4 x 2.8GHz
Gigabyte X58A-UDR3 Motherboard
6GB Tri Channel DDR3 1600 Ram (3x2GB)
Powercolor HD5870 Graphics with 1GB VRam, Factory Overclocked.
1TB Samsung Spinpoint Hard disk drive
Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit Operating System
Samsung DVD+/-RW 22x
Antec Three Hundred Case
Antec Earthwatts 650W PSU

Around the budget, check these ones:

http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/PCI/MiaMIDI/index.php

ECHO MIA MIDI is a rather bare-bone workhorse but has bombproof drivers and balanced input/outputs. If you don't want to record multiple inputs (drumkit for ex) and 2 ins, 2 outs, SPDIF and MIDI I/O in the breakout cable are enough then this one will serve you well. I have one in my editing / DSP farm workstation. Never made a mistake (...unless I loaded the machine with an unhealthy amount of FX - hello Windows...).


http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=pro ... interfaces

M-Audio stuff come with good software drivers as well. Audiophile 192 has the same feats as MIA MIDI just with higher resolution AD that says 192 KHz. In the practice it is just a nice big number but you can find very few recording softwares/plugins that can handle 192 KHZ well (or at all).

http://www.emu.com/products/welcome.asp?category=505

EMU 1212M cards have pristine quality and some nice DSP that have some use and great flexibility through a rather freely configurable driver software. Also packed with a nice starters software bundle. Back in time when it came out there were some driver issues as it's said (I can verify that, we had a couple of them in different editing workstations, that's why I got a MIA in my machine instead) but I guess these are all solved by now.

I have an E-mu 1212M myself, and this has served me extremely well for many years now... I can recommend it warmly. E-mu are a subsidiary of Creative, and thus they are responsible for their drivers... they have years experience in the PC driver making, so these are quite stable.

I have a Creative X-Fi, however it's hard to recommend after they decided to change the midi connectors to mini din - you get the cables included but if you lose or damage one, they don't sell replacements separately.
Why deviate from the standard 5 pin din anyway????

The Asus Xonar Essence STX PCI-E Audiophile is a real quality piece of kit if you're budget allows:
http://pcupgrade.co.uk/productdetails.a ... goryid=278

Necropolo - thanks for the great advice and tips (also Razmo). Those do look good products and ones that I'd not really considered. I was just about to buy the Xonar before I posted this, but I've read lots about it's awful latency problems, and there are no plans to rectify it, so the other firms mentioned will get a good working over and hopefully I'll find the right one...I do know that Creative and XOnar are primarily gaming cards...low latency and quality is the primary driver for me, so I cannot justify "wasting" good money if these latency problems exist (20 ms is the reported lowest the XOnar will go).

I should have mentioned the midi in on my EMU keyboard was USB, so I hope that doesn't affect things. Thanks again guys.

E-mu's line of cards will go down to 2ms latency without trouble, and all their onboard DSP power is 0 latency... The FX routing is incredibly versatile and flexible for whatever you want to do, and you can allways upgrade a 1212M to a 1616M by just purchasing the break out box later on if you need it. The converters are mastering grade, and those found on Pro Tools top of the line converters (if you go for the M version that is). The MIDI drivers for its 1 or 2 MIDI ports are tailored for fast response also (beware of MIDI interfaces that use USB and only use Microsoft's standard drivers... they are quirky as hell!).

For the price I've not found anything that give as much bang for the buck as the E-mu line of cards...

You're welcome, man

+1 to what Rasmo said, you really can't go wrong with 1212M. I'm sure that they have developed drivers much since my experience with early drivers of 1820M and 1212M initial series.

Is the 1212M end of life product? On the E-Mu site shows as no stock.

NecroPolo wrote:You're welcome, man

+1 to what Rasmo said, you really can't go wrong with 1212M. I'm sure that they have developed drivers much since my experience with early drivers of 1820M and 1212M initial series.

They sure have... I had the 1820M at first, and later "downgraded" to the 1212M because I did not need all the ins and outs. The only thing I ever experienced problems with (in the beginning) was when using the onboard FX as plugins in the sequencer (SONAR). I later totaly discarded anything software, so I've not really been using the E-mu cards much in this way, so if this has been well sorted out I cannot say.

But using the card's onboard DSP FX in the PatchMix program with the card has shown me NO flaws what so ever (PatchMix is the digital mixer/router for anyone not knowing).

These days I use my 1212M only for two things: 1. As a playback system on my PC, and simply recording the output of my outboard analog mixer, and this works great! (my 1212M is not involved in any sound creating stuff anymore, exept mastering digitally after 2 track recording entire compositions).

Summa Summarum; if you need to use the onboard FX as VST, I'd check it out first, to see if the thing works... if not, I hardly dowbt anyone would be disappointed with these cards.

Analog-X64 wrote:Is the 1212M end of life product? On the E-Mu site shows as no stock.

E-mu has been extremely quit for a long time actually... only recently they made new drivers (beta) for the product line. After E-mu got "taken" by Creative, I bet that Creative has put a great deal of pressure on E-mu's tech guys for creating all their consumer products, so therefore new stuff with the E-mu brand name is far in between unfortunately.

If they are seing a break in production om 1212M's because of the component problem many companies are seing these days, or they are having something up there sleeve really soon I cannot say.... but the 1212M and 1616M are pretty old card by todays standards, so I would not be surprised if they spat out something new soon.

Analog-X64 wrote:Is the 1212M end of life product? On the E-Mu site shows as no stock.

I hope not. This is a nice soundcard.


Razmo: as far as I can remember, the same thing happened here back in time, too. Both Sonar (6 I guess) and Adobe Audition (2.0, perhaps? We kept upgrading SW versions so I can't recall clearly exactly what was installed when we had old 1820M and 1212M cards years ago) seemed to produce odd system crashes when DSP FX were used in VST mode, 1820M sometimes just hung at sample rate change, on occassion did not boot up properly. We changed them to RME and ECHO units in the production machines. Later, our EMU cards were used in the broadcast modulation line between studio -> IP -> transmitter as audio send and receive and worked flawlessly after some driver updates. Well, until someone stole that stuff a couple of years ago and vapourised some machines/cards/processors - but that's an another story...

It was years ago, shortly after when they came out, now'days I would not hesitate to get one. The price/quality ratio is really impressive and you won't find better converters for the price, with a footnote on the term "mastering grade converters" that 1212M sports: those dedicated DigiDesign units for AVID and PROTOOLS systems pack many extra tricks&gadgets besides those fantastic Cirrus Logic chips to produce that clarity, quality, freq response, stereo image.

I must also tell that I could never do an A/B test, maybe this little card would be a surprise, who knows

Its seems like its taking forever to get some life stuff sorted and to finally get my audio stuff back in good shape.

So if I get a 1212M can I use it with Fruity Loops for Pure VST usage?

I plan to have a Hybrid VST / Real Gear setup. But initially I want to just do pure VST, my current sound card is ok, but I need something better.

Analog-X64 wrote:Its seems like its taking forever to get some life stuff sorted and to finally get my audio stuff back in good shape.

So if I get a 1212M can I use it with Fruity Loops for Pure VST usage?

I plan to have a Hybrid VST / Real Gear setup. But initially I want to just do pure VST, my current sound card is ok, but I need something better.

Certainly.... I've played around with normal VST's and DXI's at 2ms latency in the past, and it works fine ... there are both WDM and ASIO drivers from E-mu with the package.

Sorry to hear though, that you are giving up on your hardware plans

Analog-X64 wrote:So if I get a 1212M can I use it with Fruity Loops for Pure VST usage?

Should work perfectly.

NecroPolo wrote:

Analog-X64 wrote:So if I get a 1212M can I use it with Fruity Loops for Pure VST usage?

Should work perfectly.

Cool!!!

I sold something on ebay for $129 and I also sold an old Laptop I wasnt using for $240, so I've got $369 to play with